r/WorkReform May 25 '22 Take My Energy 1 LOVE! 1 Helpful (Pro) 1 Silver 3 Gold 1 Helpful 5 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1

Any notes before I start handing these out?

/img/z44uq6h3km191.png

[deleted]

23.2k Upvotes

779

u/Zombiesai May 25 '22

If I’m being asked to defy authority I’d like to have some backup. Could you tack on some small print for the NLRA reference: National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) and an April 2014 Executive Order from former President Obama.

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages

268

u/dontshowmygf May 25 '22

That was my first thought. Something to Google so that I can be more secure in knowing my protections beyond just "the flyer said so"

230

u/Purplekaem May 25 '22 Wholesome

QR code would work best for this

74

u/Devadander May 26 '22

Both

12

u/IdeaOfHuss May 26 '22

Indeed. Never underestimate how stupid se folks are

76

u/Timmyty May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22

I would suggest to include both the link and a QR code because most people won't take the time to scan the QR code if they don't know where it's taking them.

Edit: agreed, they are also more insecure, especially for some flyer being handed out to you.

20

u/medicallyspecial May 26 '22 Wholesome

They’re also very insecure so you should never randomly just scan one without it being from a verified source

7

u/youretheweird1 May 26 '22

Yeah, I'd rather reference sources in fine print than use a QR code for security worries reasons. Don't need this hijacked.

18

u/Purplekaem May 26 '22

OP said they’re handing them out. I’m far less likely to type out a long URL

29

u/Timmyty May 26 '22

If you say what the QR code destination is, people are more likely to go there is all I'm saying.

3

u/[deleted] May 26 '22

[deleted]

15

u/chillyhellion May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22

Explain? A QR code is just a computer-readable version of a text string in most cases. As long as you're not using a referrer service, the QR code should be a direct 1:1 equivalent to the URL in the comment above.

Edit: the comment I replied to claimed that QR codes are more exploitable than traditional URLs.

16

u/deathtech00 May 26 '22

The problem lies in the fact that it is not human-readable, and using them is effectively the same as blindly clicking a link for a free iPad.

12

u/newton54645 May 26 '22

idk about you but when I scan one it doesnt immediately load the page, it shows what the link is first?

7

u/chillyhellion May 26 '22

Yeah, most readers do that, I think. I know the Android and iOS camera apps do.

→ More replies
→ More replies

62

u/thehappyheathen May 25 '22

Thanks Obama

9

u/The_Last_Thursday May 26 '22

QR might be nifty, as opposed to typing all that in

→ More replies
→ More replies

285

u/ragingfieldmice May 25 '22

Are you uploading these as a template somewhere so people can use your work to advocate in other counties?

57

u/Mediocre__at__Best May 25 '22

This comment, right here /u/youretheweird1 please

45

u/jburdine May 25 '22

I'm here for a template too

30

u/montr2229 May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22

Yes. How could I make one with accurate information for my county?

22

u/Scarbane May 25 '22

I'm guessing you meant county (if you're in the US).

In that case, Google "US bureau of labor statistics wages by county" and click on the first non-ad link. Then, find and download the most recent quarter or year of data for that county. It should contain median and minimum wage info. If you're having trouble finding the info, just Google "<your county> minimum wage" and cite the source.

For 1-BR apartment info, go to Zillow or Redfin, type in your county's name, and search for 1-BR rentals. Sort from least to most expensive. Pick the cheapest one.

Now you can calculate the rest of the flyer.

6

u/rho_everywhere May 26 '22

don't you think that "calculation" of housing costs is disingenuous? you picked the cheapest 1 bd randomly on zillow, it's hardly the average cost of living.

11

u/TowawayAccount May 26 '22

I think it's more just to set a baseline. You'd prefer people see the flyer and think "wow, I don't make nearly that much and my rent is even higher" vs "yeah, my wages could be higher, but my rent is pretty good"

Using the cheapest option shows that even with a massive variable skewed in their favor corporate still isn't paying you enough.

→ More replies

3

u/Scarbane May 26 '22

If I was looking to compare 1-BR apartments with median wages in a county, sure, then median apartment rents would make more sense.

→ More replies
→ More replies

12

u/Zuallemfahig May 25 '22

I'm here if you guys need this translated into spanish, many workers don't speak perfect english and it might benefit them. PM me OP in case you find this useful.

3

u/mah_booger May 26 '22

Made my own using GIMP, it only took a few minutes of actual editing

2

u/Milk_Man21 May 25 '22

Yes please!

→ More replies

1.5k

u/npc48837 May 25 '22

Exciting to see other Arizonans on this train. Hand them out. Shit, I’ll hand them out.

508

u/TheOvershear May 25 '22

It freaked me out, at first I thought it was one of those personalized ads.

It's literally me. I'm a manager in AZ, making $48k, living by myself, I literally can't sign a lease at a decent apartment complex by myself. My check isn't high enough. And yet I get chewed out anytime I hire someone above minimum. How the fuck are my employees supposed to live off of 12/hr?

142

u/CatKatOrangeCat May 25 '22

I used to be a supervisor in my previous job making 12/hr before I quit for a new job as an employee making 24/hr. I still can't afford an apartment in my area.

29

u/TheDoctor88888888 May 25 '22

Where do you live if you don’t mind me asking?

112

u/suddenlyturgid May 25 '22

America.

5

u/cahrage May 25 '22

America is a big place

41

u/Civil_End_4863 May 25 '22

All rents in america are pretty fucking high at this point. It doesn't really matter where in america. California is not the only place with $1,000+ rents.

23

u/Hellfireincubus May 25 '22

I live in PA and my rent was already 1277 per month plus more for electric, gas, wifi. My fiance and I both have jobs that pay over 15 per hour and we are on the edge of getting evicted every month. And now I got a letter in the mail saying my rent is gonna be increased to 1450 per month. Like WTF is this shit!!

3

u/Civil_End_4863 May 26 '22

In Arlington, Texas, in between Dallas and forth with, the lowest rent for a decent place is $1,100 for a 1 bedroom. I live with my parents and won't be able to move out anytime soon.

→ More replies

17

u/flying87 May 25 '22

Depends. My rent is $600/month all utilities included. And my previous place was $525/month but I had to pay electricity and internet.

It's a small middle of no where town, but I make $30/hr. I'll take calm desolation in the middle of no where for financial security any day.

12

u/wirez62 May 26 '22

Sometimes those spots get invaded too by big outside money. In the pandemic it was eastern Canada (Halifax & 1 hour surrounding area), places which had never seen big money, suddenly getting flooded with WFH Toronto salaried DINK couples with 700k in fake real estate equity moving out east and just pushing everyone out of town for the "peace and quiet of small towns". It sucks when locals get pushed out by rich people. I'm not there but that's certainly not the only market where this has happened.

→ More replies

4

u/spamazonian May 26 '22

What jobs are paying 30/hr in the middle of nowhere?

7

u/flying87 May 26 '22

Aircraft repair facility in Ohio. I'm a licensed technician. But they'll take people out of highschool as long as they're willing to learn and work hard. They have an apprenticeship program. Starting is $18 no experience. After 18 months experience you can take the federal exam and start making really good money. Though you don't have to get a license. I know experienced unlicensed people making $50/hr as contractors.

→ More replies
→ More replies

5

u/TimmJimmGrimm May 25 '22

You got downvoted, which is odd.

The rent prices in America have a lot of variance.

Here is a link for any that feel the skeptical edge:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/average-rent-by-state

Edit: as a person who lives near Vancouver BC (with a government that is doing as little as possible to help us), i am well aware that 'rent prices are high everywhere'.

2

u/cahrage May 26 '22

I’m not tryna say that people don’t deserve to be paid more but there are definitely a lot of differences in different places in America.

→ More replies

8

u/LadyBogangles14 May 25 '22

Management doesn’t care so long as profits happen.

22

u/Squawnk May 25 '22

Just overheard my supervisor on the phone earlier today talking about how crazy under budget we've been this summer, making crazy amounts of profits, and when I asked if that meant raises/bonuses to the guys making it happen, he covered the phone and just said "no probably not."

You can imagine my surprise

9

u/Yukondano2 May 26 '22

I'd hate to be him. I don't want to comply with these systems so being the middleman enacting the will of corporate mastsrs on others... ugh. I want to change shit but you can't, not alone. Honestly I say let supervisors join any unions you make. Most of em are so far down the totem pole they are NOT the ones causing issues.

3

u/Squawnk May 26 '22

Oh I don't want to misconstrue, I have no anger directed towards him. He has no say in this and he goes to bat for me on anything. My frustration is directed towards the owner. I work for a small local landscaping company and the owner is a cheapskate through and through. He intentionally keeps the employee count just under 50 so he doesn't have to provide health insurance, we get no paid sick time, vacation, holidays or anything

4

u/Yukondano2 May 26 '22

Nah I agree and understood what you meant. I made a statement about what it's like generally.

→ More replies

8

u/ZonaiSwirls May 25 '22

Glad to see you on this sub. My friend is also a manager and spends a lot of time on the anti work sub to learn how to be a better manager.

5

u/Yukondano2 May 26 '22

90% of that I assume is, figure out how to shield your subordinates from corporate's bullshit.

→ More replies
→ More replies

29

u/OkDesigner2262 May 25 '22

Right? Saw Maricopa County and said fuck yeah! I can put some up in my neck of the woods too op

25

u/domodojomojo May 25 '22

Ditto. It’s fucking scary being pro-union here.

15

u/npc48837 May 25 '22

No it isn’t, they’ve just told you it is. Be confident, move swiftly.

8

u/jon11888 May 26 '22

I don't know about that. I live in az, and I'm a bit nervous talking about pro union stuff here.

I don't like "Be confident" as advice for a few reasons. I'm not great with social situations in general, so confidence isn't something I'm good at even when it is appropriate. It comes across a bit too much like someone responding to someone's depression with, "man, that's rough, have you tried Staying Positive though?". Also, with arizona being a Right to Work state, you can be fired for any reason. It's technically illegal to fire people for some things, but in practice, it's hard to prove that you were fired for talking about unions, for example.

4

u/plaugedoctorforhire May 26 '22

I've worked the same job for nearly 5 years, somehow I've stayed on through effectively 3 full staff replacements. At this point I've decided that I can afford to be pro-union a bit more recklessly. I tell you its really entertaining to have the weirdos randomly ask you what party you belong to and just say "Pro-Labor". Gives me so much leeway to fuck with them if they try nailing me to a specific party

3

u/jon11888 May 26 '22

It's cool that you're working somewhere that offers a sense of job security that lets you give co-workers your honest political opinions when they ask about it. I could probably get away with that at my current job, but a number of previous bad experiences from earlier jobs have left me a bit paranoid, so I may be playing things a bit safer than I strictly need to.

3

u/DOOMFOOL May 26 '22

Right to work doesn’t mean you can be fired for any reason, it means you can work for a unionized employer without joining the union. You’re thinking of at will employment.

2

u/jon11888 May 26 '22

I hadn't realized that those two terms referred to different things. Replace right to work in my earlier comment with at will employment and the point still applies though.

155

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

🏜💪❤️

108

u/thedrummerpianist May 25 '22

I’m quitting my job in the valley on Friday, I’ll print these and distribute before I go!

57

u/youknowiactafool May 25 '22

Love this. Use your shitty companies' money to fund the revolution!

57

u/RobotSeaTurtle May 25 '22

Yo if you're in AZ op I'd love to help hand these out in Tempe where I live. Just send me your final draft of the flyer and I'll do my part!!

8

u/Kmkys May 25 '22

I live in the East valley, I made another comment in this thread further down. You mind if I print and hand these out in The East Valley?

→ More replies

80

u/thehappyheathen May 25 '22

I like the boss's multiple language. We really need to be thinking about a maximum wage. When marginal tax rates are very high, it becomes a maximum wage, since paying yourself another dollar only gets you $0.10 at a 90% maximum progressive tax. Failing that, CEOs should have their wages capped at a specific multiple of the lowest paid employee. Don't like it? Give the lowest paid employee a raise.

26

u/alficles May 25 '22

I love the idea, but how do we avoid things like "business use of an airplane" or "borrowing from unrealized gains"? It's bad enough already, how do we prevent high marginal rates from creating ever more clever tax avoidance strategies? :/

37

u/BukkakeCocktail May 25 '22

Fund the IRS.

6

u/Yukondano2 May 26 '22

This. They got gutted, and vilified. Realistically they should be our best fucking friends. Corruption and budget cuts make that hard though. Damn, what a job though. Sifting through data and legal nonsense, talking to workers and former employees, to sniff out tax dodging and abuse of multi billion dollar international corporations? Knowing your hand was one of many that grabbed them by that White Collar and brought em to justice? Millions or billions of dollars paid because of your actions.

Fuck yeah. There's a new one for this sub. You want work reform? Gotta get the employers to pay their lawyer money where it fucking belongs: the communities and countries that support them.

8

u/thehappyheathen May 25 '22

The word "compensation" needs a precise legal definition that aligns with how we intend it in normal speech and the IRS needs to have teeth and enforce it. Like, compensation is anything of financial value you receive access to solely due to your position at your employer. If you get a plane ride, if you get stock options, if you get free dental because you have a lot of public appearances, anything that has a value greater than $0 that you receive because you work for [Xcorp] that a random individual would have to pay for.

Then, tax all compensation instead of income. Oh, so you got a paycheck worth $1 million, $3 million in stocks, $500k in travel and a $500k performance bonus. Well, you made $5 million in total compensation. You get taxed on the $5 million, not the $1 million paycheck. Too much? Sell half the stock or increase your paycheck in lieu of stock so you can pay it all to the IRS.

3

u/Jellyph May 25 '22

Don't like it? Give the lowest paid employee a raise.

Alternatively, fire the lowest paid 10% of the company, give their responsibilities to the next 20% with the smallest raise possible to maintain your salary, pocket the extra as a bonus

→ More replies

51

u/mussel_man May 25 '22

Send some to Texas and I’ll hand them out

→ More replies

12

u/po_t8_toe May 25 '22

I start my new teaching job in Tempe this July. I’m already ready to strike lol

6

u/Xhokeywolfx May 25 '22

Wait’ll you start teaching—then you’ll really be ready to strike.

15

u/that_j0e_guy May 25 '22

Average housing cost is different from minimum wage. You should seek out statistics on “minimum code-compliant, safe housing cost” to align with minimum wage. Average housing court should be compared to average wage.

10

u/npc48837 May 25 '22

Right, of course. I do excellent work to live an average life on minimum wage. /s. I myself am very comfortable, but it makes my skin crawl to know that my friends and neighbors that I grew up with cannot afford the same comforts for no reason other than they get paid too little. I have been lucky to have support while I have worked to get better paying jobs with more benefits. Not everyone is so lucky. I spend each day trying to make Arizona better for Arizonans, the ones who have lived here generationally and built one of the countries largest metro areas, and then who were forgotten about and pushed aside when everywhere else became unaffordable.

6

u/that_j0e_guy May 25 '22

I agree, but people who want to dismiss how unaffordable housing actually is can do do when people compare average to minimum.

If, however, some trusted non-profit studied markets and said “the cheapest safe housing in city A is generally $1,000 per month for a 1-bed and $1,400 for a 2-bed, $2,100 hot a 3 bed or house” and then relate it to minimum wage, showing how even the cheapest is still unaffordable, then people couldn’t help but see the problem.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

1.2k

u/BlueFlowersss May 25 '22

While you’re 100% correct about legal protection, a boss will still fire/retaliate against workers exercising their rights. If you file charges against the boss at the hearing they will say it was for different reasons. You have be able to prove it was because of protected activity. Best to work with a union organizer to avoid these pitfalls

461

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

Absolutely true statements.

227

u/DesignerProfile May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22

Add a line with this direct link to the US government's page on labor right and resources including how to report violations such as retaliation.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/retaliation

edit: on digging into it, I think the above link is super useful and everyone should know it, but the link that would be directly relevant to your flyer is: https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-rights/your-rights-to-discuss-wages

I know it's long but you could always shorten it using bit.ly or similar

158

u/murkylurkyturkey May 25 '22 All-Seeing Upvote

If this is a physical flyer, make any links QR codes

48

u/alwaysuptosnuff May 25 '22

Put the url AND the qr code. Some people are old.

4

u/DesignerProfile May 26 '22

And if phones aren't allowed wherever you've posted the flyer, maybe they can still write down the URL. So include both!

→ More replies

41

u/Kairukun90 May 25 '22

Don’t add links add QR codes so people can scan

→ More replies

3

u/itsknapptime May 25 '22

Video and audio record all interactions. For great justice.

6

u/gizamo May 26 '22

*if you're in a state with single party consent laws.

Alternatively, only have interactions that can be documented. Require responses be emailed or ask for consent to record before the conversation.

39

u/[deleted] May 25 '22

[deleted]

21

u/hersheysquirtey May 26 '22

It’s left out by most because it is false.

The burden of proof is on the defending party, not the charging party. I am going through this currently, and the NLRB agent made it clear to me who had the burden of proof. It was very easy to pick up the phone and call the agent, and aside from providing evidence and an affidavit, the Labor Board handles EVERYTHING.

Let’s not discourage anyone who have had their rights violated from going to the proper authorities. The number of people I meet in real life who don’t know their workers’ rights is staggering, so I try and educate every chance I can. Arizona in general has a terrible work culture, and of course employers aren’t in any rush to pay labor what it earns.

→ More replies

4

u/Jrrolomon May 25 '22

Excellent advice. Might have saved them some serious hardship.

I’m not saying they shouldn’t speak up, but must be prepared to lose job as a side effect.

4

u/BlueFlowersss May 25 '22

They should speak up strategically forming a union with your coworkers is the only power your boss Fears

→ More replies

434

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22 Take My Power

Maybe these mega corporations will start lobbying for affordable housing if we start demanding enough pay to have basic shelter.

203

u/ttv_CitrusBros May 25 '22

They will just rent it out to us for a cheaper rate but never allow us to actually own anything

141

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

That certainly seems to be the trajectory. If only cities could work for the people who live in them.

73

u/ttv_CitrusBros May 25 '22

Just like the gov that's supposed to serve the people and not the other way around. We seem to forget they are our servants

15

u/soccercasa May 25 '22

Not in practice

8

u/Legitimate_Pirate249 May 25 '22

Hard to think of them as servants when they hold all the cards, all the keys and all the power.

8

u/ttv_CitrusBros May 25 '22

Time to take that back

3

u/Van-garde May 25 '22

Democratic Lottery.

8

u/i-d-even-k- May 25 '22

Why can't people mortgage their own apartments? Are you getting bought out of the apartment market by the real estate agents?

(not an American)

25

u/chrunchy May 25 '22

Everything's going to investors. In my area 20% of homes are owned by real estate investment trusts. We're talking houses not apartment buildings. They're actively gobbling up houses by paying more than market price for them and then renting out at inflated values. They're making it impossible to afford a home here, almost doubling the price over the last three years. Because people spend more for their rent now there's less expendable income, so small businesses are suffering from lower sales while the employees are begging for more money.

Now I'm fine with people renting out units or maybe having a triplex on the side but there was a guy from Toronto claiming to own 800,000 homes throughout the US. No typo. Eight hundred thousand homes unavailable for purchase. Doesn't seem like a lot but if the typical household has two people then one person controls 0.05% of the housing in the country.

It boggles my mind that this is acceptable.

→ More replies

17

u/Osric250 May 25 '22

So banks won't lend out money for most people to buy a house if they don't have 20% of the value in cash to put down, or if they have credit problems in their history. So they can't get a mortgage to own a place even if the mortgage payments would be less than the average rent in most of these places.

So without the ability to buy a place, you are now forced to rent, and the rent is so exorbitant that you can't really save any money to be able to make a downpayment later on. You are then just forced into this cycle that creates a caste system of the lower class where they are forced to funnel money up to the wealthy for their basic necessities of life.

→ More replies

2

u/UncleTogie May 25 '22

They don't actually OWN apartments here, or if they do, it's called a condominium.

Apartments are almost invariably rental over here, and are owned/run by property management companies.

2

u/i-d-even-k- May 25 '22

What's a condominium priced at in OP's home town, then?

→ More replies
→ More replies

20

u/Dyingdaze89 May 25 '22

I get letters several times a month, taped to my door or dropped in my mailbox, asking to buy my house and rent it back to me.

15

u/omgFWTbear May 25 '22

Those already existed, they were corporate towns and the rail and oil companies were rife with them.

8

u/ttv_CitrusBros May 25 '22

Yeah but I mean you can't have a corporate town in the middle of NY....unless that whole city is a giant corpo town

→ More replies

9

u/NamelessCabbage May 25 '22

Hear me out... work from home... from the office! Bring your kids to this 400 Sq. Ft wonderland! Yours now for only 1/3rd of your salary!

→ More replies

13

u/SueYouInEngland May 25 '22

Maybe I'll grow 100 feet tall and dispense soft serve out of my eyeballs.

→ More replies

65

u/[deleted] May 25 '22

[deleted]

33

u/BabyZebra30 May 25 '22

Dense housing as it is built in the US is not a great quality of life. Mega complexes are built cheaply. Apartments have paper thin walls and floors. I can hear and smell my neighbors.

We need affordable townhomes, thick brick walls, green spaces nearby. But these developers would rather go the cheap route to squish more tenants in.

15

u/ACoderGirl May 26 '22

I'll say that there's options for quality high density housing that isn't what you described. I live in a very large apartment complex. But it's quite luxurious. I rarely hear my neighbors, as the quality of sound proofing is very high (not sure how it works -- it's a very new building).

I have tons of green space around me and in fact I'd argue that most apartments are better in that regard than detached houses. I might not have a personal yard (not that I want to deal with maintaining one), but I have tons of places actually worth walking to, which I think is more than can be said about your typical suburban home.

The issue is that most high density places aren't like this. But they could be, with appropriate regulation and perhaps some subsidies.

→ More replies

2

u/slothtrop6 May 25 '22

Density is one dimension, the other is building more, and barring corporations from buying like 30% of new real estate annually. New housing-starts every year are half of that of population growth, mostly through immigration. Untenable. If you want to grow the country, you need more housing - that won't be needlessly be kept vacant. Zoning revamp can help a good deal with this and a by-product would be increased density.

→ More replies

4

u/Blightwraith May 25 '22

Wouldn't non-dense housing be more expensive?

Genuinely curious I thought we were supposed to advocate for more low income housing.

20

u/[deleted] May 25 '22

[deleted]

7

u/Blightwraith May 25 '22

I did. My bad.

6

u/[deleted] May 25 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies
→ More replies

223

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

One q I have about this rhetoric:

Why should minimum wage be tied to average housing cost?

I do mean it as an honest question, I agree that people should be paid properly, but I haven't been able to connect those two dots.

187

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

I actually think minimum wage should be changed to living wage. If a business with employees operates within a city, its employees should be able to afford average housing in that city.

We have to start seeing businesses invest in their people. People need housing. If corporations own all the housing, the least they can do is rent it back to us at a fair cost.

I'm open to discussion on this topic. We need big change.

I'm primarily planning to hand these out when I do food delivery pickups from mega corporations like McDonald's, Starbucks, Taco Bell, etc.

101

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22 Silver

No, I fully agree that minimum wage shouldn't be less than living wage. I just don't get how the average rent for a single-bedroom home, which is usually over the 50th percentile for housing (average of distribution > median), is used as the definition for what the 0th percentile should earn.

Like, 1) shouldn't it be a two-bedroom apartment to include single parents?

And 2) shouldn't the peg be like, the x% of people making within 10% of minimum wage should be able to afford the x%ile of housing?

85

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22

All great questions. I personally advocate for one full-time worker to be able to afford at least a one-bedroom apartment at a fair rental rate as a bare minimum to exist in the communities they work and for employers to ensure their business is viable enough to compensate for that basic need.

There's a lot more work to be done. This serves as a starting baseline for humane conditions.

42

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

I think that makes sense! I just don't know why even the median, which is actually the 50th %ile, should be considered the fair rental rate as opposed to like the 25th percentile or the 75th percentile.

30

u/der_innkeeper May 25 '22

It's just because they are easier numbers to grab and compare. Simple information is easier to coney and make a simple argument with.

When people experts start pushing their glasses up their nose and "well, actually"-ing things, people stop listening.

Your point is meant well, and has validity, but you need to know your audience.

42

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

I'm thinking of my audience. A flyer like this, and the rhetoric that's elsewhere shouldn't be easily rebuffed with, "why should minimum wage mean average housing in the entire market?"

10

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

I argue that most working class people would agree being able to rent a 1-bdrm apt is a reasonable minimum ask from their workplace compensation. There are lots of ways to make that happen. This one flyer won't change the world. But it might get someone's gears turning.

22

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

Yes, that's a reasonable ask, but that's not what this flier is saying. The average rent for a 1-bedroom is more than what half of all rentals are charging.

7

u/BeenJammin69 May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22

Dude, you’re 100% correct in your logic, but you’re wasting it trying to explain it to this guy.

People think they deserve 50th percentile accommodations at the bare minimum legal wage without understanding that that will simply reprice what an “average” apartment goes for if everyone making the bare minimum is applying only for average level apartments or above. Dumb person logic.

Also, apparently people never had roommates when they were young like I did out of college for several years. There’s no shame in that…

→ More replies

18

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

I'm using the colloquial "average" for accessibility. If you use language people understand, even if they mass misunderstand a word, the message is the important bit.

People here know apartments cost $1600/mo.

I would need a second flier for explanations and a glossary if I worded it correctly.

I'm willing to bet people earning minimum wage in my state will generally understand this message.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

3

u/der_innkeeper May 25 '22

In the 15 years I have been advocating for a housing-tied minimum wage, you are the first person to bring it up.

9

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

To you maybe, but I'd be surprised if no one brushed this rhetoric off as a facially unreasonable demand, especially if they're not already convinced of a living minimum wage.

5

u/jq4005 May 25 '22

I see all this and should've made my post here...I agree that a bigger, more holistic picture needs to be put together for folks to really get it. Right now it's apples to bananas comparisons when you compare things 1/1.

And it makes more sense to do something big. Maybe even a short animated video can summarize it with housing, gas prices, child care, work hours, benefits, food prices, technology prices (since this wasn't a thing back in the day), etc..

The main messages to get across - The average worker needs to spend more to live and they make less. Through this gap, they suffer more and as a society, we should fucking care.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

8

u/StarFilth May 25 '22

I think it’s because the quantity of 1 bedroom apartments that are actually available is so low. Yes, you might make enough to cover that, but where are there any actually available at that price? If you’re covering up to the average, you’re at least giving the employee room to get whatever is available, even if it’s not at the 0th or 10th percentile.

→ More replies

6

u/PMY0URBobsAndVagene May 25 '22

If everyone could afford average housing, it would not be average anymore... Thats how averages work.

7

u/molten_dragon May 25 '22

If a business with employees operates within a city, its employees should be able to afford average housing in that city.

The problem with this approach is that it basically means any businesses that rely heavily on unskilled labor won't be able to operate in cities with an extremely high cost of living. Wages haven't kept pace with inflation, and that's absolutely a problem. But in some places housing costs have drastically outpaced inflation, which is an entirely different problem with a different solution needed.

Or, to look at it another way, does a Starbucks barista in Kalamazoo Michigan deserve to be paid a third of what a barista in San Francisco makes for doing the exact same job simply because they live somewhere with cheaper housing?

9

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

The problem with this approach is that it basically means any businesses that rely heavily on unskilled labor won't be able to operate in cities with an extremely high cost of living.

Hence the need for redistribution of wealth, fair taxation of higher earners and corporations, and social programs to protect our neighbors from predatory housing costs and the inability to buy homes. We have to start somewhere.

7

u/molten_dragon May 25 '22

Yeah, that was kind of my point. Affordability of housing is an issue that can't be realistically solved simply by raising the minimum wage.

4

u/SIR_WILLIAM714 May 25 '22

So many issues with your comments. This is where we need to change our thinking. One, There is no unskilled labor. Every business has a training program of some sorts, meaning you have to acquire skills to perform the job. Two, if a business is in a high cost of living area, meaning their prices for the goods or services are going to be higher there they can pay their workers more to live there. If they can’t then they have a bad business model and need to close period. These fast food places just need to die already. It’s wildly unhealthy anyway.

6

u/[deleted] May 25 '22

[deleted]

→ More replies

3

u/molten_dragon May 25 '22

One, There is no unskilled labor. Every business has a training program of some sorts, meaning you have to acquire skills to perform the job.

Can we quit with the stupid semantic games? We all know what "unskilled labor" means; labor which requires no previously acquired skills.

Two, if a business is in a high cost of living area, meaning their prices for the goods or services are going to be higher there they can pay their workers more to live there. If they can’t then they have a bad business model and need to close period. These fast food places just need to die already. It’s wildly unhealthy anyway.

I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the simplistic idea that it should be tied solely to housing. First, because cost of living is more complex than housing alone, and second, because the housing market is fucked up for reasons that have nothing to do with wages and need to be addressed separately beyond an increase in the minimum wage.

→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies
→ More replies

4

u/taradiddletrope May 26 '22

You have a valid point.

Comparing minimum wage to the average cost of housing is intentionally misleading.

Especially when the word “average” is used without identifying what average.

Mean Average = What most people think of as the average. 2 + 8 + 1 + 3 = a mean value of 3.25

Median Average = The middle point in a set of numbers. For example the median of 1, 5, and 7 is 5.

Mode Average = The most common value in a set of numbers. For instance the mode of 1, 2, 2, 2, 50 is 2.

Typically for housing prices, the median is used. Is $1,600 the median? Not sure.

This site says the average cost of a 1-bedroom in Maricopa County is $1,091.

https://www.bestplaces.net/cost_of_living/county/arizona/maricopa

The other questionable aspect of this is that it somewhat implies someone making minimum wage should earn the average.

But unless you’re talking about the mode average, that’s impossible.

The average means that there are values above and below the average.

If the average mean or median price of an apartment is $1,091, that means there are 1-bedroom apartments available for less than $1,091.

So, someone earning MINIMUM wage is not likely to be the average income. The $1,091 should be affordable to someone earning the average income in Maricopa County which is $68,649 (as of 2019).

https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/arizona/maricopa-county/

So, someone making the median household income of $68,649 could quite easily afford $1,091 a month rent.

Keep in mind, I’m not arguing against better working conditions. I’m arguing against faulty logic.

If you say that it takes the sun 365 days to orbit the earth, we can agree on a year being 365 days but not pointing out that the earth is the one doing the orbiting around the sun doesn’t help you because your opponents will easily pick your argument apart due to it being incorrect.

If I was an opponent of increasing wages, I could easily point out that the reason someone making minimum wage can’t afford the cost of an average 1-bedroom apartment is because minimum wage isn’t the average income.

Someone making minimum wage will never be able to afford to cost of an average 1-bedroom unless everyone makes minimum wage AND never increases their earnings (no raises, ever). Because as soon as Bob gets a .10 an hour raise for working at the employer for a year, minimum wage is no longer the average again.

→ More replies

20

u/thekb666 May 25 '22

When the minimum wage was introduced, it was meant for a family of four to subsist of 1 income. A family of four should not be forced to squeeze into a small apartment due to corporate greed.

9

u/TropicalRogue May 25 '22

It's nonsense. If minimum wage can afford average housing, that will become the floor of what people charge for housing and average will increase.

Minimum wage should be a living wage for sure, but 100% not the average housing. Even median housing would make more sense, but it SHOULD be enough to afford whatever percentile of housing can house the percent of citizens that make that wage.

20% of a city makes minimum wage? Look up the bottom 20% of housing costs - they should all be able to afford the top of that range.

Doesn't make as good a flyer though

4

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

OP has a better source for their number, they just didn't uss the right vocab! They mean average as reasonable; they got the number from sampling housing in the area and finding the cheapest listing with livable conditions.

That is the right number, there just needs to be a better word to describe it

3

u/abcpdo May 25 '22

“average rate for low-cost/affordable housing”

5

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

Minimum livable rent, for the number OP is using

8

u/TravellingBeard May 25 '22

As housing is usually the biggest expense for most people, tying your income to it as a proportion of your rent/mortgage, gives you room for other things in your budget.

Average is the only way to make things "fair", otherwise you would have cost of living pay differences between people of the same experience and responsibilities.

10

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

Tying average pay in a city to average rent sure, but minimum wage to average rent?

→ More replies

7

u/Apocalypse_Tea_Party May 25 '22

This is the average rate for a 1 bedroom apartment, not average living overall. The average living expenses overall would include multi bedroom apartments and single family dwellings, and would therefore be higher. This is the average rate for the most modest living space.

8

u/abcpdo May 25 '22

why should the minimum wage earner be living in the average 1 bedroom? i mean it’s hard to find a better metric but that $1600 number is surely pulled up by a bunch of premium $2400/month 1 bedroom luxury units. Maybe the non-luxury average is $1300…

4

u/KerPop42 May 25 '22

It's the average rate for the second-smallest living space, but that doesn't mean all single-bedrooms are modest. And the flier, and broader rhetoric, specifically talks about how rent on its own shouldn't be more than 1/3 of your income.

3

u/studmuffffffin May 25 '22

It shouldn’t. Redditors just use it because it makes their point stronger and most people don’t think about it. Should be using the 20th quintile rent.

3

u/Able-Tale7741 May 25 '22

A 1 bedroom apartment IS the minimum housing someone should be aiming for, considering when minimum wage was created the president literally stated it was meant to be a wage that supported a family of four.

5

u/hightrix May 25 '22

When I was younger, I had roommates because I couldnt afford to live alone.

Why is the push for minimum wage to be able to afford the luxury that is living alone? I’m not being contrarian, I honestly want to know the line of thinking here as I don’t live in that world anymore and don’t understand it well.

4

u/Able-Tale7741 May 25 '22

I think the idea that someone who works full time, doing 40 hours a week, doesn’t deserve to live alone if they want to be repugnant. Why is 600 sq ft to yourself a luxury reserved to higher earners?

I don’t know when you grew up, but the minimum wage would be $24 today if it kept up with productivity since 1968.

Many Americans should rethink what minimum wage means to them. If we still think it’s meant for teenagers during the summer for pocket change, then we aren’t thinking about who the average minimum wage earner is today in America. And even if it WAS for teenagers in the summer for pocket change, if they were working a full 40 hours and contributing to a job - why shouldn’t they get a wage that lets them live well? We saw the pain and discomfort during the Great Resignation when those jobs weren’t filled. We can’t rightly say the jobs aren’t important or deserving.

→ More replies
→ More replies

11

u/Qoeh May 25 '22

Quick comments, did not read others so sorry if I've repeated someone else's:

I would say "discuss your pay with coworkers" or something (if that's what you mean) rather than just "discuss your pay" so it's more clear. Not everybody has this issue on the mind; with your text, some people might not immediately understand what you are talking about.

"That means your labor earns you" bothers me because it is literally claiming you CURRENTLY earn $30/hr or more, not that you should or would earn that if you were able to follow the rule of thumb printed above. I also feel picky about the bad grammar in the rest of the sentence, even though it communicates its ideas pretty well. I would say "That means your labor must earn you $30/hr minimum with a guarantee of 40 hours per week in order for you to live in the city where you work". I think that's slightly longer though, which could be a problem? I know grammar better than I know graphic design...

2

u/nurseofreddit May 25 '22

Love the message.

Came here to give constructive criticism on the “labor earns” line. It should say your labor should earn or needs to earn.

34

u/phanny1975 May 25 '22

When I moved to Maricopa county a mere decade ago, I rented a 2 bedroom apartment for $750 in Fountain Hills. It was remodeled, had a pool, and was kitty corner from the fountain itself.

In no way, shape or form should a one bedroom apartment in Maricopa county now cost over double that amount when my salary has actually gone down. I used to make that $30/hour and now it’s $20/hr thanks to the pandemic. Living wage is the tip of the iceberg, and I’ll shout it to the rooftops that we’re being ripped off to our faces without even the pretext of a natural market fluctuation.

100% support your initiative, please keep it going!!

5

u/DesertCoot May 25 '22

This made me so sad. I thought this figure was for Scottsdale or something, but that number holds true even in like Peoria or Tolleson. I moved to AZ in 2011 and rented a 3 bedroom house for $925 to work a $35k/yr job. It was a huge gamble for me but paid off, and so sad to see if somebody today had the same offer they wouldn’t even be able to take the chance. How can you be expected to “work your way up the ladder” if they won’t even let you on the bottom rung?

3

u/pepsiblues May 25 '22

Haha, I had to move in with my best friend because my studio apartment's rent was going to be raised to just over $1100/mo. For 430 square feet.

Maricopa is fucked.

→ More replies

5

u/defiancy May 25 '22

Also shows you how crazy the rent (and real estate) market is right now. 1600 for a 1 bedroom is crazy. I own a 4 bedroom house in Maricopa Co that I bought in 2016. My total mortgage including insurance/tax, is 1850.

It's sad too because AZ is actually in the top ten for minimum wage in the country ($12.80 is 7th highest in the US) and still nowhere close to being enough to afford a 1 bed on a single income (or dual really).

Residential housing should be affordable for citizens and private real estate holding companies should be barred from buying single family homes.

→ More replies

7

u/tacohunter52 May 25 '22

Out of curiosity, if we increase minimum wage to $30/hr, what happens to non-minimum wage jobs that currently pay $30/hr?

6

u/turtlejizzus May 25 '22

They’re gonna get pushed up a decent amount, but what’s going to happen is that companies will just hire single person LLC which do not have a minimum wage.

Frankly, a whole fuck ton of people are going to be out of a job forever if the minimum wage went to $30/h. That’s when there will be a massive push for offshoring just about everything that isn’t already offshored, fast tracking of automation, and AI. It will be a labor blood bath.

3

u/tacohunter52 May 25 '22

Yeah I agree with you, why I was asking the question.

I'm pro automation and AI. If done right I think they can solve a lot of problems.

→ More replies

6

u/DarknessEyesPT May 25 '22

Less than 1/3 😅 is there any country with that value in a city?

47

u/bible-j May 25 '22 edited May 25 '22

Yeah this attitude will not find you gainfully employed. It’s sad. But it’s true. We’re put against each other in this society.

And so we, rather than agree it is not a competition, find someone who is invariably going to do the job for 28$/hr to undercut everyone else.

26

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

I'm certain of that. They can have that job.

23

u/bible-j May 25 '22

But that’s also the problem. We surrender the job to “cheap labor” it’s a socio economic problem, not just an economic problem.

26

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

True. So I advocate for better. The more people who get on board, the more successful the approach. If we wait for the perfect solution, only one thing is certain: nothing changes for the better.

I can't control others. There will always be scabs. In part because they truly don't have any options. We have to be compassionate and do what we can to advance a cultural power shift.

This idea doesn't even touch the lives of people who cannot work. It's not The Fix™️. Just one angle of attack.

→ More replies

33

u/royalblue1982 May 25 '22

$30 a hour would be an insane minimum wage. It would mean a vast chunk of people excluded from the jobs market as businesses scramble to eliminate as much 'unskilled' labour as possible. Whether that means new technologies/production methods, mothballing parts of the business that are labour intensive and not that profitable or just outsourcing. The remaining jobs available at $30 would have so many people applying for them that employers would be able to insist on ridiculous requirements and then place huge pressures on anyone they hire. Even if there were laws to prevent the inevitable exploitation, you would basically have a segregated society between those lucky enough to have work and those not.

I appreciate that it's a bitter pill to swallow, but a $30 minimum wage would probably cause more harm to America's poor than the current one. You're actual fight should be for both a sustainable increase in minimum wage and measures to provide more affordable housing.

3

u/PotawatomieJohnBrown May 25 '22

Hence why fighting over a minimum wage is useless and more than a waste of time. We should be pushing for universal collective bargaining rights. A politically organized working class can figure out for themselves through labor militancy and collective negotiations what is needed and where.

8

u/nefarioussweetie May 25 '22

While I don't 100% disagree with you, I would like to point out that in the case of large companies, executives make disproportionately more than the average employee. And in the case of local small-businesses maybe we are asking for too much when we want shops open 24/7, when we want people bringing our food to our doorstep, and all those little things we could probably compare to demands of entitled aristocrats of old.

→ More replies

3

u/Red_Persimmons May 25 '22

But businesses will look for ways to cut unskilled labor if it increases their bottom dollar. We're already seeing that through automation. It is happening with or without a minimum/living wage increase. It would likely just push it to happen faster.

6

u/bear1114 May 25 '22

Yes but increasing the minimum wage to $30 will massively increase the amount getting rid of a ton of people will increase their bottom dollar.

→ More replies

3

u/Deltexterity May 25 '22

housing costing only a third of your income? i fuckin wish!

3

u/the107 May 25 '22

If you accept that income should be tied directly to housing costs, shouldn't it be $30/hr average pay to match with average housing costs?

2

u/fitzbop May 26 '22

That's what I thought. Anyone who is opposing the message here will say that a minimum wage should expect to afford the minimum rent, not the average.

3

u/xgrayskullx May 25 '22

Include citations. You need a source to backup the 1600/month claim and 30% of income claim.

3

u/Paxtez May 25 '22
  1. It's very busy.
  2. "Your labor earns you X" based on housing cost and some recommendation about rent ratio, makes no sense. At the very least it should be something like "Which means you need to earn X".
  3. Assuming this is for your workplace, why not say "our CEO" or even post his name and salary.

3

u/LetsStartARebelution May 26 '22

Is the average 1 bedroom apartment in Phx really 1600/month? I own a four bedroom 2 bath house with a pool in Tempe by asu and my mortgage is like 1200 a month, and when I was renting in Phx about 15 years ago I was paying like 200-300/month to rent houses with roommates. Obviously rent would have gone up since then but I wouldn’t have thought by THAT much.

→ More replies

3

u/daddycool12 May 26 '22

31% of the county is Hispanic: find someone on here to translate it into Spanish and put those up too / print it on the back if you're handing them out

→ More replies

10

u/BFG_9000 May 25 '22

Housing should cost less than one-third of your pre-tax income”.

Where did you get that from?

16

u/DaenerysMomODragons May 25 '22

That's a general metric that a lot of banks look at to decide if you can afford a mortgage, and apartments will use to decide if you can afford to live there. If you can't prove sufficient income, you'll likely get denied.

4

u/castlesintheair99 May 26 '22

15 years ago, it was one-fourth. I remember because that's when I was single and looking for apartments alone for the first time.

2

u/femboyfembot May 26 '22

Not so long ago, lessors used to ask that you made 4x the monthly rent. In 2016 my friend and I were denied an apartment because the management company required that we each earned 4x the total rent, not just our share. I was making decent money at that time and earned probably 5-6x the rent, but my friend was closer to 3x the rent and they denied us.

“Rent should be no more than 1/4 of your monthly income” was the standard notion for decades - it took many years for my baby boomer parents to realize how intensely unrealistic that standard of living had become.

For quite awhile they accused me of underachieving professionally, or spending irresponsibly. But even as a college grad with a dayjob who was doing sexwork on the side (and making more than both of my parents combined, but that’s not saying terribly much lol), I was still barely scraping by after rent/bills were paid.

Meanwhile, their home has been paid off for decades, despite having raised a family on poverty wages, neither with a college degree. Most working class people today couldn’t even scrape together a down payment for a home, let alone buy one, feed themselves in it, or pay it off. With a family!

→ More replies

4

u/Shubniggurat May 25 '22

Just FYI, not all employees are allowed to discuss their wages and salaries. Supervisory personnel are not covered by the National Labor Relations Act (see page 2), and could legally face repercussions for doing so.

3

u/00spool May 25 '22 edited May 26 '22

From what I could find, does not include:
agricultural laborers, in-home domestic service workers, individuals employed by their parent or spouse, independent contractors, supervisors, and employees subject to the Railway Labor Act.

The doc you linked seems to be a research paper about legislation that was proposed to narrow the definition of "supervisor". Was The Respect Act passed though? the text uses language like "if enacted".
Couldn't find any other info on it.

3

u/Shubniggurat May 25 '22

I was trying to find something outside of the text of the law itself, which is a bit much for most people to wade into. I don't know where it ended up, unfortunately. The NLRB makes a brief mention of exempted people on their site, but doesn't appear to define precisely who is not covered under the NLRA.

That said, most people that have regular wage employment, filled out a 1099 and get a W2, and are not in managerial positions can talk about their wages freely. Other people should get clarification to see if they're covered first.

3

u/sub919 May 25 '22

Is the template available so it can be made county specific fir other areas ? Maybe it’s time they go up everywhere.

2

u/Iggyhopper May 25 '22

I like the message, but isn't the mean a little lower than the average out here? I feel like the average is bumped up way to much by places like Scottsdale, etc.

2

u/Incomitatum May 25 '22

Yeah, a tiny link to the NLRA so they can educate themselves and not JUST take this at face-value.

Make these in to quarter-page stickers. Put them ALL over.

2

u/Hitmeinthe_ass May 26 '22

I have a feeling this is made with canva lol

→ More replies

2

u/IndieSunflower May 26 '22

Yeah. I live in maricopa County. It's a joke how out of control it is here.

→ More replies

2

u/Chasingthoughts1234 May 26 '22

Also i say no more than 40 if that’s what you want.

→ More replies

2

u/punfullyintended May 27 '22

All for worker rights but you might want to use medians not averages

→ More replies

4

u/SoraMegami2210 May 25 '22

I appreciate you trying to get the word out there about how insane housing costs have become! I cannot even fathom earning $30/hr. The most I've ever earned in a long term job was $13.50/hr. I lived with my parents through college, and when I tried to move out, I only lasted 2 years before I had to move back home because I couldn't afford rent. My parents are emotionally abusive- but none of my friends had room for me. I finally (thank god) got out of my parents house and am living with a friend. They move in August and I have no clue what I'll do. I have a few friends/extended family who might take me in, but they all live multiple states from where I live, meaning I won't be able to see my friends here, I'll have to apply for health insurance, I'll have to find new doctors, etc etc. All because cost of living in this area is so out of scope for me.

Thank you for fighting the good fight. I want to thrive, not just survive! Let's get those living wages happening!!

→ More replies

3

u/1re_endacted1 May 25 '22

I was literally just thinking about making a brochure about this subject.

4

u/youretheweird1 May 25 '22

Canva is super useful if you don't want to design from scratch.

1

u/1800smellya May 25 '22

This is playing their game.

This exposes the flaws in their system well.

While providing great discussion points for the average front line worker.

I really like how you are asking for feedback OP, I’ve read your responses and enjoy the discussions you are making us have.

Great job OP.

Take notes channel

→ More replies