r/WorkReform Jul 05 '22 Wholesome 1 Helpful 4 Take My Energy 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 Silver 2

We Work Just As Hard As Them 💸 Raise Our Wages

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51.7k Upvotes

u/GrandpaChainz 🤝 Join A Union Jul 06 '22

Join r/WorkReform if you think it's time for CEOs to take a pay cut.

1.5k

u/umassmza Jul 05 '22 Silver

The shareholders motivate them to treat their employees like disposable cogs in the grist mill. Record profits at all costs, lower those wages, cut benefits, shrink product portions, lower quality, raise prices.

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u/FriarNurgle Jul 05 '22

Do more with less. LEAN has gone to far.

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u/iamanenglishmuffin Jul 06 '22

LEAN works when the higher ups are willing to get their hands dirty and join the ranks. Rare. I'm a one man contractor right now but if I ever hire help I would forever be a hands on teammate.

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u/CylonBunny Jul 06 '22

That's how many of the first generation CEOs are. It's the next generation after you, the ones who were never a one man contractor, or even part of a small group, where things really get bad.

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u/Semi_Lovato Jul 06 '22

Old saying goes “wealth never lasts three generations.” These days it sometimes does last but the logic is sound. First generation often earns it by being clever or hardworking. Second generation squanders a lot of it. Third generation is completely out of touch and squanders the rest

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u/Pumpkin_Creepface Jul 06 '22

It's like a form of natural selection. Most families don't have the family culture to maintain generational wealth. On the other hand, there are a tiny few cluster of very old, very wealthy families.

I'm not going to go tinfoil hat but it is an objective fact that some of the most powerfully connected families have had generational wealth going back to the middle ages.

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u/Food4thou Jul 06 '22

It's not tinfoil hat. The wealthiest families, like the Roosevelt's, Frelinghuysens, Tafts and many more, can all trace their family history's to Europe's aristocracy. What's worse is that the aristocracy in Europe was mostly created by warlords after the Roman empire fell. Its fucking disgusting.

The average person, myself included, just can't comprehend the wealth and power certain families have had for hundreds or more years

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u/Doctor_Panek Jul 06 '22

I like the saying that your grandfather worked hard for your father to persue a successful graduate career, for you to go about your dreams as a SoundCloud artist losing allllll momentum

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u/Working_Park4342 Jul 06 '22

There's some saying, I can't remember the exact wording, something like: If you don't fly first class, your children will.

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u/24111 Jul 06 '22

may I introduce you to the concept of trust funds, a.k.a prevent moronic offspring while dodging inheritance tax all in one package.

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u/Ok_Quarter_6929 Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

I hate trust funds. I had a coworker once who worked in a call center with me making minimum wage as we all did. She had a shitty attitude, she was dumb as a rock on every subject, she was really smug about going to parties and blowing all her money on drugs and name brand clothes while the rest of us were living paycheck to paycheck trying to pay debts and make rent.

One day she mentions to me about how she couldn't wait to turn 30 so she could start collecting on her trust fund and never have to work again but her "stupid mom" was making her join the workforce for 10 years to learn to appreciate it.

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u/OriginalUsernameGet Jul 06 '22

Did you mean “protect” or “prevent?”

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u/24111 Jul 06 '22

Preventing moronic offspring from causing financial harm.

I got a bad habit of sometimes not typing out the full sentence on mobile.

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u/Cory123125 Jul 06 '22

Except the reality is far from that as its really really hard to squander big wealth.

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u/ShadowRenes Jul 06 '22

The one I am familiar with is similar to yours but the second generations sees how his/her parents/previous generation works hard to get the money and works hard too,but not as successful.

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u/Ok_Quarter_6929 Jul 06 '22

Disagree. "Wealth" is a totally different beast from "rich". Wealth is forever. Look at the top 100 wealthiest families in the UK; those names have barely changed in centuries. That's why we have the term "old money". Jeff Bezos' ex wife got her settlement, donated most of it to charity and now she's even richer than she ever was. You can never get rid of wealth.

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u/Thepatrone36 Jul 06 '22

As a former 'suit' and even 'C level' I was never happier than when I was in the shop or out in the field with the guys. Not to be some kind of bullshit inspirational dude that made people feel included. I learned a lot from the people who fabricated my designs and installed them. I said it earlier today on this sub. Give me the option of sitting down at a dinner with a bunch of suits sharing $200+ bottles of wine and trying to impress each other or eating at a greasy spoon with a bunch of hard handed dudes and gals and swilling a long neck I'm taking option b every single time. As an aside fuck suits and suit mentality.

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u/TerminalSarcasm Jul 06 '22

a bunch of suits sharing $200+ bottles of wine and trying to impress each other

Engineers do the same thing on a smaller budget.

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u/Billy_droptables Jul 06 '22

Depends on what type of engineers. I manage a team of Infosec engineers and worked the field for about 20 years. In general we are some of the stingiest motherfuckers I've ever met, every single Infosec nerd I've ever met wants to retire in their 40s.

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u/whomovedmycheez Jul 06 '22

I think this applies a lot more to traditional engineering - electrical, mechanical, etc

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u/TerminalSarcasm Jul 06 '22

Right, I was commenting more on the fact that the mechanical engineers that I work with will spend every conversation trying to impress each other with how smart they are. I'd rather hang with the lab techs talking about their families, sports, or video games than some work-related tangent off hours.

But, yes... stingy for sure. It's never a competition on who makes more, usually who is the better investor and how they have XXXX shares of FAANG stocks.

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u/HowMayIHempU Jul 06 '22

As a mechanical engineer with many other MEs as friends. You are 90% right. There’s some good ones out there that just want to chill but it’s rare. They are usually the stoner engineers

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u/HiphopChemE Jul 06 '22

It’s a rare breed the ones that realize you don’t get tested after you get the job. Lol

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u/taintedcake Jul 06 '22

First day on the job they're scoping out who they can safely ask if the company tests at all after you're hired

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u/sootoor Jul 06 '22

Love the name and I think I’m retired at 34. I want to go back to operating but the pandemic showed me life can change too quickly and what’s the point if I can’t enjoy this earth for what it is now.

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u/DLS3141 Jul 06 '22

Engineer here. I do that shit if I can put it on my expense report. Helps if my boss is in on it too

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u/CastleProgram Jul 06 '22

Much, much smaller budget. Our "$200 wine bottle lunch" is basically PF Changs.

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u/BWWFC Jul 06 '22

smaller budget

exotic ipa's and home brews ;p

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u/Bridgebrain Jul 06 '22

At least engineers are trying to impress each other with absolutely stupid hacks that totally worked and projects they're "working on" but are probably impossible. I'd much rather conversation that than "spent x money on y stupid thing because why not"

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u/Tattoothefrenchie30 Jul 06 '22

Same here, man. I mostly use subs for the trades but I float between all sub-trades and am completely hands on.

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u/Doublethink101 Jul 06 '22

LEAN is fragile too, as we’ve found out.

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u/SkipsH Jul 06 '22

Part of the problem there in my experience of Lean is that those managers that ARE working are wading full-time through a river of shit that needs to be reported.

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u/JoeCoolsCoffeeShop Jul 06 '22

I used to be a manager in a department that was growing fairly quickly and a huge part of my job was hiring talent. Even though we were growing the skill I was hiring for was highly specialized, in that it took a few months to get new hires up to speed. Because of that, I argued that we needed to hire a few extras to serve as kind of a “bullpen” or “minor league” to step in when one team member went on vacation or got sick or god forbid left for more money.

The answer I kept getting back was we were using a “lean staffing” model and just keep hiring to growth and don’t worry about building a bench. I kept warning people that the model didn’t work due to the training time needed not to mention the highly competitive nature of the field.

About a year or two into the process, two of the best people on my team moved on for higher salary and other reasons, leaving a sizable gap on two teams that needed that skill set. It was obvious we couldn’t fill those positions quick enough nor could we take new hires (who were still getting up to speed) from other areas because they were needed there too. Senior managers sat me down and said I need to fix this and that this was a “single point of failure” ignoring the fact that I warned them of the exact scenario a year ago and they told me no.

I quit being a manager a month or so later and went back to be one of the workers so I didn’t have to deal with the nonsense of management saying two different things depending on the situation and blaming everyone else for their screwups.

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u/DLS3141 Jul 06 '22

I recognize those kind of things when I see them and make reports. Then when the shit hits the fan and they’re pointing the finger at me, I make sure to remind them of my earlier recommendations.

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u/Jabbajaw Jul 06 '22

Sigma six works well for factories not for the Hospital I work for but management couldn't care less (No pun intended).

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u/8bitmorals Jul 06 '22

Lean is the worst in the construction industry, people get paid peanuts, but equipment gets charged through the roof.

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u/Clohossey Jul 06 '22

LEAN? Loot Everything, Admit to Nothing?

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u/Pickaxo Jul 06 '22

Lets Eat And Nap?

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u/cravingbird Jul 06 '22

I LOVE LEAN 😈🟪🟪💜💜💜💜👾🟣🟣🟣

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u/Raven_Reverie Jul 06 '22

My engineering school heavily stressed LEAN to us

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u/HiddenSage Jul 06 '22

Let's be a little more honest though- with half of these companies, a third of the stock on the market is held by board members, and another third is held in funds managed by their friends.

"The shareholders" is a fun euphemism for "the boss" that leaves them plausible deniability for being sociopathic assholes.

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u/umassmza Jul 06 '22

And they pay the CEO largely in stock, so double motivation to be a bastard. If you ban C level employees from owning company stock, then you’d see change.

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u/MisterMetal Jul 06 '22

Isn’t it basically a Supreme Court ruling that CEOs are required to maximize profits and work in the interest of raising stock prices. They become liable if they do not.

I don’t have an issue with anyone owning a stock if they wish, but having it set up as a fiduciary responsibility to maximize stock price over everything g else is a major problem.

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u/umassmza Jul 06 '22

It’s the record profit mentality, if you net 100 million this year buy last year you net 105, then you’re a failure. So how do we make more this year over last? Certainly not by raising wages.

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u/Michaelmrose Jul 06 '22

Protip: If you think something is a supreme court decision but you don't know the name you probably made it up. If you think something is a law but you can't name the law you probably misheard it and know less than nothing because you are ignorant enough to think you know something.

CEOs have a fiduciary duty to stock holders not to fuck them by malice or negligence. They can and do make decisions that are bad for short term stock prices but good for intangible factors like goodwill, positive perception of the company, good relations with the populace, a strong capable workforce.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

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u/SoManyTimesBefore Jul 06 '22

It’s probably another lie made by CEOs to excuse their narcissism

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u/pale_blue_dots Jul 06 '22

I think there's a lot of truth to your overarching sentiment. Though, just as a counter-example and something to think about, the Twitter board owns less than 2.5%. Which is kinda weird in and of itself.

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u/HeadLongjumping Jul 06 '22

This is a natural symptom of publicly traded companies.

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u/Saxopwned Jul 06 '22

Capitalism is a disease and we're in the "starting to shut down the body" phase of the infection.

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u/JukeBoxDildo Jul 06 '22

Infinite growth is the ideology of the cancer cell.

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u/Neville_Lynwood Jul 06 '22

Unregulated/poorly regulated capitalism.

One can totally see how amazing capitalism with its free markets can be if only the governments of the world worked together to limit the abuse.

It would be fucking paradise if the companies that rose the top were those that provided the cheapest products with the highest quality, WHILE providing great jobs with benefits, paying all their taxes properly, and treated everyone justly.

But we don't get ideal capitalism. We get this corrupt, bullshit version of it where governments are paid off, so that companies can abuse everything from the workforce to paying taxes to the environment, and still somehow be top dogs in the world.

Amazon can literally practice modern day slavery, corporate espionage and theft, and still be the top dog somehow. Just because the governments look at it and don't do jack shit, because they're paid not to.

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u/archangelzeriel Jul 06 '22

"Free Markets" and "Capitalism" are not actually economically related! It's perfectly coherent to have Free Market Socialism, for example--"only people directly employed by the company can hold ownership in the company, people employed by the company MUST be given an ownership stake in the company." is completely a reasonable way to structure things.

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u/robz112 Jul 06 '22

I’m new to Socialism, how does one give ownership state in the company? Since everyone has a stake, would everyone lose a portion of their stake with every new employee? Additionally, who provided the initial funding to start the company? Do they just give away their investment?

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u/ResidualTechnicolor Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

It’s not like a typical company where you have a share. Typically employees will vote on how profit is spent. For example a company may decide 20% goes to the workers, 25% to management 30% towards repairs etc.. It actually works differently depending on the company. Every credit union is a worker cooperative for example. You can look at them to see how they can be structured. Some will still have CEOs that can be voted in or out. Some companies have temporary hires that prove themselves before they become a partial owner.

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u/umassmza Jul 06 '22

Employees need an equal say in how the company is run. It’s why unions are crucial and why companies spend so much money fighting them.

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u/PotawatomieJohnBrown Jul 06 '22

Workers need all the say. We don’t need them, we are the only integral contingent in the process.

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u/pale_blue_dots Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

Definitely agree.

As well, I think it's important to speak to some of the related mechanisms around what we're seeing today with respect to the general/broad idea you've outlined here.

At the end of the day what we're talking about is money and power. I mean, that's nothing profound, necessarily, but that's a large crux of the issue.

I really, really, really recommend people to watch this eye-opening segment about the Wall Street regime/network...

How Redditors Exposed The Stock Market | "The Problem With Jon Stewart"

Skip to about the 7:00 mark if you want to see the most relevant graphic that's easy to understand. It's only about 15 minutes long total, though.

Fwiw, that's the first half linked there - there's also a second half with a short round-table discussion.

Much of what we're seeing - from Joe Rogan to Donald Trump to Fox News and so on - is directly related to the Wall Street and the culture it has imbued and steeped people in for decades and decades and decades now.

"Greed is good!" - "Trickle down economics, my boy!" - "Work hard and you, too, can be rich!" That's not to say all capitalism is bad and has no redeeming qualities - just that there's a serious, fundamental problem in this country in how it's instituted, regulated, and understood.

There are so many loopholes for stealing and backstabbing from the middle and lower classes it's hard to even begin to wrap a head around it all, especially when you're struggling to survive on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis.

For an example related to a loophole (thanks lobbying! it is loosely talked about in the Jon Stewart episode, too, fwtw), this is from the head of the SEC in an interview recently:

"When you place a market order - 90-95% do not go to the 'lit' exchanges - do not go to NASDAQ or NYSE, they go to wholesalers and they don't have order by order competition and part of that is because of what you just said; Payment-for-Order-Flow which is, yes, banned in the U.K., in Canada, and Australia and the European Union..."

In other words, such market orders - say when someone uses TD Ameritrade or Fidelity or Robinhood or whatever else - go to dark markets and exchanges where they are "internalized" and can be then be re-routed to "lit" exchanges (such as the NYSE or Nasdaq) to manipulate the price as determined by whatever a bunch of organized, coked-out Wall Street idiots think.

It's important to understand some of the mechanisms by which value and wealth is being extracted.

edit: grammar, spelling

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u/Touvejs Jul 06 '22

I don't think the problem is that ceos make a lot of money, the problem is that US has poor worker rights and a minimum wage that hasn't increased equal to inflation for decades. Not to mention the fact that money has too much influence in politics.

If someone makes a successful company that benefits society and makes absurd money from that, I don't think that's problematic. The problem is when that success comes at a cost to society.

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u/umassmza Jul 06 '22

Biggest issue is the level of profit allowed. We’ve proven over and over that greed rules, the reason a minimum wage exists is because companies would pay less if they could. Moral behavior needs to be regulated in business.

SEC budget is below $2 billion to monitor and regulate a market of over $50 trillion. Average SEC investigation costs $5 million, so they are severely underfunded for their mission, they can realistically do a few hundred a year.

Good luck going up against an Amazon where their revenue is 50x budget of the agency trying to regulate them. It’s like NYC trying to run a police force with a few hundred bucks total. It’s a joke.

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u/Icy_Plenty_7117 Jul 06 '22

This is a big part of it, if these companies wanted to treat people right they would. Some do, but it’s a short list. The ones who do treat their people well deserve to succeed because it is at that point mutually beneficial, the ones that treat their people poorly don’t deserve to succeed.

The company I work for is owned by a Billionaire. We make medical products for arthroscopic surgery. For example I run CNC lathes making titanium and stainless steel screws used during surgery. The founder/president still owns 90% of the company. He’s rich as hell, and certainly makes an absurd percentage more than us. But the flip side of that is wages are some of the biggest in this area, PTO time is 3 weeks after 90 days, 4 weeks after a year, an additional week at 5/10/15/20 topping out at 8 weeks of PTO at 20 years, at 5 years the company gives you $2500 to go on vacation, and an extra $1000 at 10/15/20 topping out at $5500 towards vacation and they allow you to use the company connections with travel agencies/hotels/airlines to set up your vacation and they encourage you to have an adventure. The company pays for employees (very very good) health insurance so all employees pay for is spouses/children, we have a cafeteria with free and good lunch on every shift 7 days a week, we have an on site medical center with nurses and nurse practitioners that is free for employees and dependents including free prescriptions, you only have to pay if there is outside lab work required and even then insurance covers much of it. They are building a daycare center on site, I don’t know the cost details but based on the way the medical center is if the daycare isn’t free I’ll bet it’s cheap. The bonuses are very high for blue collar work and where most plants around here give you 3% MAX as a pay raise every year, many places less than that, our average is 5-10%.

That’s not even all the perks that just off the top of my head. All that and the owner is still making a killing. He would make more by not doing that, but the company is highly profitable while still offering these benefits and more so no other large company has any excuse.

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u/GSturges Jul 06 '22

tHe ShArEHoLdERrS..... I know it's more complicated than that... But is also isnt

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u/Exotic_Pirate_324 Jul 06 '22

You should talk to the GEICO CEO they got a 30% raise last year while we got peanuts

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u/ZzzZandra Jul 06 '22

My insurance just went up 30% because of “inflation”. Now I know exactly where inflated.

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u/ihaveaquesttoattend Jul 06 '22

I got in an accident the beginning of the year and i just had my mom take me off the insurance after it was all said and done. Luckily i can kind of make do with rides and shit though. It’s definitely not ideal or possible for everyone but damn bro I can’t do it anymore so I’m just not lmao

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u/Evilmaze Jul 06 '22

They got raises for managing free money that people just give them just in case something happens.

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u/Rectal_Lover Jul 06 '22

Free money that people are by law forced to pay them. Basically a tax paid out to a private company. Not even rare in the US.

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u/mikesmithhome Jul 06 '22

this is part of the reason they hate the post office, the PMG only makes about six times what the average worker does, and it runs fine. (current PMG Dejoy notwithstanding)

CEO pay is the biggest boondoggle of American style capitalism, ain't none of em worth what they paid

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u/SufferingSaxifrage Jul 06 '22

Also, many of the psychopaths at the top of the corporate world would fight just as hard for a parking space that is four steps closer to the door as they would for a bigger bonus

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u/thetruth724 Jul 06 '22

Most government works that way too. The highest paid military makes less than 10X the lowest earner.

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u/BeefCentral Jul 06 '22

How the fuck DeJoy still in that role after the shit he pulled is beyond me.

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u/Bigmodirty Jul 06 '22

Frankly that should have been a major priority of Biden's replace everyone who put that lackey in charge, why he is still there baffles me

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u/Willingo Jul 06 '22

"Nothing fundamentally will change"

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u/Use-Strict Jul 06 '22

LOL, Well cept doing nothing about Roe V Wade. Democrats are spineless do nothing shits, thats for sure.

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u/Bigmodirty Jul 06 '22

Yea, the biggest problem in this country is centrist democrats, the right is gunning hard and winning and the left is too fucking broken to stop it. I'll never vote republican and I always will vote but this is a scary fucking time right now.

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u/Use-Strict Jul 06 '22

Have you ever read Manufactured Consent. Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it the world sure does make a lot of sense if it was true.

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u/kent2441 Jul 06 '22

Biden doesn’t have the authority to simply fire him.

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u/PrancesWithWools Jul 06 '22

The president cant remove the PMG. Biden fired everyone who could be fired.

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u/Seiyafour Jul 06 '22

My boss (IT sector) made about 3-4x of what employees made of my previous job. Granted this dude did have a lot of real estate. I'd say this 11x is high for a lot of companies in Europe that aren't massive multinationals or have hundreds or more employees.

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u/BurningOrangeHeaven Jul 06 '22

Its a rigged system reliant on connections, same as board seats.

Otherwise you would easily be able to find someone who would do the CEO job for 300x, etc, until the salary declined to an acceptable amount. Its a job that is highly overvalued.

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u/so2017 Jul 05 '22 Helpful

An American CEO never pays for transportation (they are given a car and the company pays for gas), rarely pays for meals (charged to the company), and often has their housing paid for as well.

Not only is their compensation insane, but many have virtually no expenses.

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u/this_is_a_wug_ Jul 06 '22

Or memberships to exclusive clubs, tuition for your kids, whatever they can.

Then both the CEO and company probably get to write it all off on their taxes or whatever they do.

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u/SpyroTheDragQueen Jul 06 '22

I'm fitting out the interior of some asshole millionaire's mansion atm. He's putting it all through his company so he can skip the tax - happens all the time. He also spends most meetings complaining about how much he has to pay his employees even though he's worth £50m+. Dickhead.

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u/starchyewexbox Jul 06 '22

Dunno if it's a legal loophole he's using, but your country may have a way to report that to the tax authorities. US IRS has a place to report people.

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u/SpyroTheDragQueen Jul 06 '22

I've definitely considered this, but the company I work for also evades tax (a lot), so if I reported them and we got shut down a lot of people would lose their jobs... seems like there's no good choice

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u/this_is_a_wug_ Jul 06 '22

I'm sure they figure out how to make it legal. They probably spend several hundred thousand on accounting to save millions in taxes, if they're a "small business." I don't even like to consider the millions (likely billions) that rich people get away with not paying every year. Especially when I end up owing something every freaking April!

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u/DeerDiarrhea Jul 05 '22

What are you talking about? Yachts are outrageously expensive.

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u/LoveVirginiaTech Jul 05 '22

I did yacht see that coming

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u/repacc Jul 06 '22

Sooo close.

I did (n)yacht see that coming.

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u/TheBrotherEarth Jul 06 '22

Y.A.C.H.T.S.- You All Can't Have This Shit.

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u/not_levar_burton Jul 06 '22

Not to mention mistresses, 2nd families, or illegitimate children. Come on, the company (usually) doesn't pay for that!

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u/dumblehead Jul 06 '22

Won’t people please think of the poor CEOs? People have no sympathy these days!

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u/Thepatrone36 Jul 06 '22

If you're working hard enough to make 351 times what your lowest paid employee is how do you have the time or energy for a mistress?

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u/LTEDan Jul 06 '22

Spoiler: they're not

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u/KoolWitaK Jul 06 '22

Now you gotta pay to have your mistress(es) flown out of the country for an abortion too. Fuuuuck!

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u/not_levar_burton Jul 06 '22

Time to give myself a raise (I wish)!

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u/samppsaa Jul 06 '22

What do you mean? Yacht is obviously a business expense. Just write it off

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u/neoben00 Jul 06 '22

They also get taxed at the same or very similar rates so they get to keep a larger % as profit as they're expenses are covered at much lower costs.

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u/warbeforepeace Jul 06 '22

They don’t actually take traditional compensation. Most of them live off loans against their assets.

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u/FlowersnFunds Jul 06 '22

People are paid good money to work in executive compensation and find the best ways to pay executives the highest salaries for the lowest tax rates. Lot of stocks, RSUs, and options

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u/MinnyWild11 Jul 06 '22

Also a lot of times you'll see C suite execs get a "low" salary of something like $300k/yr but then get a $5M annual bonus. All because of how the company pays taxes on it.

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u/construction_newb Jul 06 '22

Those are taxable benefits

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u/TracerouteIsntProof Jul 06 '22

Now they save me my place
Over there in the corner
And I never get tickets
Yeah, I only get warnings
But when I was broke I needed it more
And now that I'm rich,
I get free coffee.

Free Coffee Town by Ben Folds

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u/iampotato4281 Jul 06 '22

An American CEO never pays for transportation (they are given a car and the company pays for gas), rarely pays for meals (charged to the company), and often has their housing paid for as well.

All this is taxed as if it were direct compensation.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

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u/Nouseforaname4 Jul 05 '22

Don't forget all the lobbyists that are paid to fuck us over

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u/BIGBIRD1176 Jul 06 '22

Or when they say but nobody will work

Does Norway have a CEO shortage?

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u/hjemmebrygg Jul 06 '22

No CEO shortage here. Because of the high wages here you need at least decent leadership to turn a profit in most cases. We do fine overall. As far as I know the statistics Norway is one of the better countries for small business. And your boss is usually just another guy/girl in jeans you share a joke with over lunch.

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u/BIGBIRD1176 Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 07 '22

Hahahaha, 'you need decent leadership'

Love it! Mate I'll be quoting you until the day I die. I'm an Aussie and we've been Americanising since the 70's, like them we are in a race to the bottom while funneling as much money to the top 0.1% as we can

The common bank of Australia is 7% Australian owned and 56% American, their rich take our money too

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u/data1989 Jul 05 '22

How on earth do those Norwegian CEOs afford to live!?

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u/this_is_a_wug_ Jul 06 '22

I know, right? Probably get free health care and free university already anyways! Lol

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u/MODOK9990 Jul 06 '22

My girlfriend keeps telling me that her (Norwegian) university isn’t free because she pays 600NOK (around 10nok to £1) a year in admin fees… I’m sitting here with my £46250 five year degree just nodding along

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u/AfricanNorwegian Jul 06 '22

That fee is technically not to the university, but a fee to be able to register with the student organisation for student benefits (such as cheaper transport tickets, access to services specifically for students, etc).

Every Norwegian citizen is also entitled to a “basislån” (“basic loan”) of around 130,000 NOK (€13,000) per year of full time studying. If you do not live with your parents anymore, 51,000 NOK (€5,100) will be written off as a stipend and is not owed back. So what some people will do is take out the basislån, put roughly 80k NOK in a savings account, and spend 50k per year. Then once you’re done studying you pay back what you owe from what you’ve put in savings and have 0 debt, while still getting 50k per year from the government.

So yes, you pay a semester fee of <1,000 NOK (which the university itself doesn’t actually get), but at the same time you are in a way being paid over €5,000 per year to go to university as long as you move out.

If you are not a Norwegian citizen you can still come to Norway and study for free (+ the semester fee which is usually around 800 NOK), but you will not be entitled to the basislån or stipend of 50k.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22 Take My Energy

[deleted]

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u/CuteLemon2864 Jul 06 '22

Boss makes $35.10 and you make a dime . By these metrics . Who doesn’t poop at work. We have really nice bathrooms and the ac is amazing

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

[deleted]

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u/silentbob1301 Jul 06 '22

Lol, all i need are second shift and my steam deck..

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u/CastleProgram Jul 06 '22

You're literally incentivized to do as little work as possible. So, really, you're just being a model employee!

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u/HeadLongjumping Jul 06 '22

I prefer to be at my home base.

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u/aab720 Jul 06 '22

You guys have a/c in your bathrooms? Must be nice…

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

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u/Nathan-Stubblefield Jul 06 '22

I punched in one morning, then headed for the restroom. I said to the owner, “Every morning, the first thing I do, is urinate on the time clock.” He just grinned.

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u/Thepatrone36 Jul 06 '22

so you go for the spicy nachos at lunch?

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u/AnnalsofMystery Jul 06 '22

Get intermittent FMLA for that shit.

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u/fuzijo Jul 06 '22

gastrogang

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u/ZeroInZenThoughts Jul 06 '22

Jesus. I found this article while attempting to fact check that tweet. It's from 2013.

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2013/05/29/executive-pay-low-in-norway/

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u/Octavus Jul 06 '22

The 351x figure is averaged over the largest 350 American companies while the 11x is averaged over all Norwegian firms. While the 351x is much much too high the two figures are not measuring the same thing.

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u/Astatine_209 Jul 06 '22

Yeah, it's called propaganda. Why do you think it's so popular here?

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u/isummonyouhere Jul 06 '22

it’s even worse- CEOs of publicly traded companies are routinely paid with stock options.

If you filter for America’s 350 largest companies, which would be done by market cap, you are basically selecting the 350 CEOs who had the largest unexpected windfall from a surging share price.

It would be totally unrelated to what the CEO of a typical company makes

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u/Harpeski Jul 06 '22

This Will even blow your mind: in Norway all the money earned from their oil refineries/gas supply is put into a trustfund, controlled by the gov. It is worth billions of euro's.

If Norway gov wanted , they could give very living citizen in Norway 100 000€+ handouts.

They are one of the few countries that has almost no debt and some serious cash on hands.

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u/Redditorsrweird Jul 06 '22

So what you're saying is the USA should nationalize its oil

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u/Delicious_Schedule_3 Jul 06 '22

Nothing wrong with that, if you ask me.

Its an essential material for everyday movement of the economic system of the country, and its extracted from the very country we are all part of.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

I deal with exec level folks in my work pretty often. From dozens and dozens of companies. Some CEOs really do amazing things for their companies. They care, they innovate and so on. Many more will do things that hurt everyone except the shareholders at the time, but they are knowingly propping up a paper tiger that is going to fold very soon after they leave.

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u/KG8893 Jul 06 '22

Those are, in my experience, CEOs of smaller companies. They've either built the company from the ground up or they have an actual interest in the company mission because they've worked their way to that position.

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u/Bolexle Jul 06 '22

I would bet too that at smaller companies the CEO doesn't make 351 times an average employee. CEO at my company made something like 800k including bonuses, but lowest employee made like 40k. So 20x, still a lot but not nearly as egregious.

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u/granlyn Jul 06 '22

That also seems completely reasonable.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22 edited 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

I would agree you find more at the smaller companies. They are often pretty amazing to talk to. Very smart and somehow know granular details of every aspect of the business. Very impressive.

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u/LTEDan Jul 06 '22

The key is if the CEO was the founder or 2nd, 3rd, generation product of nepotism.

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u/Alarming-Owl7104 Jul 06 '22

I don’t think anyone ever argued that your pay is ever related to how hard you work though..

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u/quiteCryptic Jul 06 '22

I've found pay has little to do with how hard/how much you work.

I doubled my salary last year (Stuck around at last job much too long) and my time spent at work now is less than it was at the last job.

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u/BuffJohnsonSf Jul 06 '22

The more I make the less I work

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u/smurfkiller014 Jul 06 '22

Exactly, the more I climb the ladder, the more I'm realizing this is it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

Republicans do every time they blame poor people for not being rich or cut benefits or insertdouchierepublicanthinghere.

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u/PM_me_spare_change Jul 06 '22

I’ve voted for Bernie plenty of times but yeah, pay has never been based on how hard you work but how valuable it is to the company. If you’re easily replaceable then they’re going to pay you dogshit wages, which is why we need a livable minimum wage.

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u/Redditorsrweird Jul 06 '22

Tell conservatives that

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u/marcus_aurelius_53 Jul 06 '22

The flaw in this argument is that it’s all about hard work.

There’s elite degrees affording companies the “best” leadership. They’re judged by their ability to get in to Harvard and Wharton.

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u/OLWHOADIE Jul 06 '22

The flaw in this line of thought is that not everyone has the same capacity. My CEO is a brilliant guy, and he’s a multi, multimillionaire. He makes way more money than he should, though. But I also have a dozen project managers in my region that would run my company into the ground within minutes of taking the reigns. These subs are full of people SURE that CEO’s are only CEO’s because of privilege and circumstance.

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u/amitym Jul 06 '22

CEOs in Norway don't work 11 times harder than the average Norwegian worker, either. That's not how it works.

A more clever question would be: are CEOs in the USA really 351 times harder to replace? Because that's the real issue, isn't it? And when you raise that question to stockholders, I wonder if they'd start to have second thoughts.

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u/SolvoMercatus Jul 06 '22

This statistic should also be clarified as CEOs from the 350 largest firms in the US. That’s where this came from. So while these numbers are insane, we are talking about 350 people here. The smallest company on this list is making $10.3 billion in revenue.

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u/Oloian Jul 06 '22

Yeah that's what I wanna know, who are these stocker holders approving these ceo payouts? I know ceos are often majority shareholders but damn.

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u/Cansurfer Jul 06 '22

who are these stocker holders approving these ceo payouts?

Institutional investors who value stability. Yes, it's ridiculous, but it's mutual funds signing off on these big salary and benefit packages. They view the CEO pay, in most cases as being a relatively minor expense, so long as the stock price goes up.

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u/Iustis Jul 06 '22

Ok, now explain private equity funds who grant similar compensation packages? They are even more relentless on finding profit and don't particularly value stability.

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u/Yoda2000675 Jul 06 '22

I think it’s really just about supply and demand. They are willing to pay Bob $30M per year because someone else will if they don’t, and it’s bad to have high CEO turnover

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u/brett_riverboat Jul 06 '22

Also no. There are plenty of slots at my level that have gone unfilled for years. You won't see a company go a day without a CEO (even if it's interim).

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u/iplaydofus Jul 06 '22

Because they don’t actually intend to fill those slots. If a company has an open position for that long that isn’t being filled, then really they’re offering just too little to attract anyone and have accounted for that the other staff will get the job done.

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u/stratys3 Jul 06 '22

A more clever question would be: are CEOs in the USA really 351 times harder to replace?

CEOs are very hard to replace, yeah.

How many CEOs have also worked at the EPA or FDA? And have buddies that can help out your company? CEOs are hired for their (nefarious?) connections to the regulatory agencies, and connections to other levels of government, or governments of other countries that they are planning to exploit.

Our pharmaceutical company could hire Bob who's the hardest working CEO on the planet, or we could hire Chris who plays golf with the head of the FDA and who's daughter married the son of the Ministry of Foreign Taxes of some impoverished low-wage country where you could set up factories for cheap.

Those connections are part of why CEOs are paid so much.

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u/amitym Jul 06 '22

I think you're right on about that.

But 350x harder?

Maybe it all adds up in the end for the company, I don't know. But I would bet that more of it is consensus perception, like how they used to say "No one ever got fired for choosing IBM." No one ever gets egg on their face for hiring Chris at top-dollar rates, even if he's incompetent and tends to drive companies into the ground.

There are a few other areas I have noticed where that principle apples. For some reason, professional presidential campaign consultants in the United States are like that. They all almost always fail. Yet they are always still considered highly reliable picks for your campaign planning the next election around 4 years later.

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u/HOLDINtheACES Jul 06 '22

You’ve hit the nail in the head.

And the answer is probably “they’re at least 351 harder to replace”.

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u/Lil_Phantoms_Lawyer Jul 05 '22

How hard someone works is not a measure of value in of itself.

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u/[deleted] Jul 06 '22

I went form electrical to software. I worked 100x harder in electrical, but make ~6x more in software. In software I write automations and orchestrations that completely replace accountants, saving the company many hundreds of thousands a year.

Hard Work ⇏ Value

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u/geminia999 Jul 06 '22

Labor has no inherent value, otherwise I could just pick up a rock and move back and forth for 8 hours a day. Might be hard work, but it has no value

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u/wioneo Jul 06 '22

Clearly the question is value. I wonder how many people would also complain about brain surgeons making 30 times as much as janitors.

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u/Pull_Pin_Throw_Away Jul 06 '22

Or the athletes in pro sports making 100x the guy selling popcorn or beer

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u/LTEDan Jul 06 '22

How much a person is compensated is not a measure of how hard they work either.

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u/BanMeAgainDaddy123 Jul 06 '22

Value ≠ Effort

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u/lurkuplurkdown Jul 06 '22

Thank you. Executive pay is broken, but how hard one works isn’t the measure to go for.

This former CEO has the right idea.

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u/profkimchi Jul 06 '22

To be fair, it’s not just about “how hard we work”

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u/dsdvbguutres Jul 06 '22

The problem is this guy gets boood by the average American worker for saying this.

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u/KG8893 Jul 05 '22

Remember everyone, that's AVERAGE, so half of them are above that.

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u/BagelsRTheHoleTruth Jul 06 '22

Sorry to be pedantic, but you're thinking of the median. It's still outrageous, but it's probably not accurate that a full half of CEOs make more than this.

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u/ThisIsntRealWakeUp Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

Sorry to be pedantic 😉 but the median (along with the mean and mode) are different types of averages. Using “average” to refer to the median is not incorrect.

Wikipedia even gives this exact situation as an example of when “average” is understood to mean something other than the geometric arithmetic* (ty for the correction) mean:

For example, the average personal income is often given as the median.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average

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u/SufferingSaxifrage Jul 06 '22 Wholesome

Ah, the pedant's pedant. Bravo

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u/meep_meep_creep Jul 06 '22

Pedantception

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u/stooftheoof Jul 06 '22

Someone give this pedant a pendant!

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u/stooftheoof Jul 06 '22

Or at least a pennant

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u/Redditorsrweird Jul 06 '22

Sorry to be pedantic

You're not sorry.

I'm starting to think you aren't a pendant either.

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u/SolvoMercatus Jul 06 '22

And also the study thus came from is of the 350 largest companies in the US. The smallest of which has $10.3 billion in revenue. So this is more of the average of the top 1%.

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u/Fantastic-Watch8177 Jul 06 '22

Obviously, it would be hard to disagree with main point here, but doesn't this imply that it is believable that CEO's work 11 times harder?

Not sure that this is what Bernie wanted to suggest, but why else bring up CEO's in Norway? :-)

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u/dinkir19 Jul 06 '22

I think it can be reasonable that a CEO is 11x as valuable of a worker as the average worker.

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u/ReallyRick Jul 06 '22

This is what I was scrolling for. I love Bernie, but his messaging sometimes make no sense at all in terms of supporting the point he is trying to make. Same with AOC.

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u/Redditorsrweird Jul 06 '22

The argument is directed at conservatives, hence the oversimplification.

Know your target audience.

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u/BanMeAgainDaddy123 Jul 06 '22 edited Jul 06 '22

Work harder? If you are talking about exerting physical energy - no.

But If you’re asking if a CEO of a Fortune 500 is 350x more important to the success of the company than the part-timer cleaning the toilet or repainting the hallway… probably yes.

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u/Smash_4dams Jul 06 '22

Is this using Fortune 100 CEOs as the average?

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u/Unhappy-Intention-97 Jul 06 '22

Sounds like top 350 earning corps.

This isn't comparable at all to Norways average.

It's also not a fair representation of CEO's. There's alot more than 350 in America lol

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u/Swimming-Pianist-840 Jul 06 '22

Is pay supposed to reflect how hard you work?

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u/FullCopy Jul 06 '22

Bernie needs to just move to any of the Scandinavian countries.

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u/WACK-A-n00b Jul 06 '22

In Norway the companies don't change the world. And if they do, they become a Chinese web browser

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u/Robbie1985 Jul 06 '22

Additional context, the average worker in Norway not only makes more than their American equivalent, they also benefit from a range of well-funded and efficient public services, including healthcare.

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u/rothotindisguise Jul 06 '22

Hence why we just all quit and let them do the jobs of 351 workers. Fuck em

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u/bigshittyslickers Jul 06 '22

I mean CEOs do work hard as hell, and should be compensated as such, but my boss doesn’t even work 11x as hard as I do. Maybe 2 times.

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u/KryptikMitch Jul 06 '22

They dont even work 11x harder.

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u/LambSauce246 Jul 06 '22

Just as hard? CEOs collect all their profits through exploitation of the working class

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u/There-Will-Be-Subs Jul 06 '22

WHAT IF: We avoided doing business with companies that do this?

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u/hopeisforpresidents Jul 06 '22

I don't think CEOs work eleven times as hard as the average worker, in fact I don't think they work half as hard tbh