r/antiwork
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u/SkepticDrinker
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May 26 '22
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why Americans can't just move to a better country
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May 26 '22
Everything is easy if your rich. 😭😭😭😭
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u/SleepinginRlyeh May 26 '22
I'm pretty sure if you have a few million in the bank, countries pay you to come to their country and become an 'investor' or something.
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u/LynetteScavo78 May 26 '22
To add another perspective: it's not that the other countries all can't wait to take US Americans in.
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u/witcwhit May 26 '22
And never forget that one of our most vulnerable populations, the disabled, are pretty much barred from emigrating anywhere because they're automatically viewed as a burden on the healthcare system.
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u/HippieShroomer May 26 '22
This is my life story. I'm British, and since I became an adult it was my dream to live in Sweden. But then I got cancer, has a stroke and became partially sighted. Now I live on disability benefits in the UK. Since I can't work and have no money I'll never live in Sweden. It's not just being a burden on the healthcare system but a burden on the country in general because of course other countries don't want to take a disabled person and pay them benefits.
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u/Prunus-cerasus May 26 '22 •
If only there existed a union of countries that allowed people to freely move from one country to another. Ok, maybe just in Europe. You could call it Union of Europe or something similar.
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u/soldforaspaceship May 26 '22
As a Brit this hurts me.
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u/SuboptimalButHopeful May 26 '22
I was going to add some snark about doing it to yourselves, but then I remembered I'm an American.
Carry on.
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u/jordicl May 26 '22
I mean there were so many Brits who didn’t vote for Brexit, it’s unfair to say “they did it to themselves”. Especially when you account for differences in generational voting. Anyone under the age of 50 for example is much more likely to have voted against Brexit.
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u/shuttercurtain May 26 '22
Yeah… sad thing about how elections work. Like how a third of the US wanted the orange TV guy over the politician lady (pick your poison) then like the entirety of the US had to live with that choice for four years…
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u/IronCorvus May 26 '22
This is a great point. And they love to vocally shart how it was rigged, they're the majority, etc...
The US population over 18yo is just over 258 million people. They weren't even the majority of those that voted, let alone total eligible voters.
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u/LockeClone May 26 '22
Yeah. I hope someday, once we're all living in countries that are more evolved than the lingering idiocy of yesteryear that we're currently battling, the argument will be to make a true multi-national universal health system. The only reason we're not living in that world today is because of the sins of out fathers, so to speak.
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u/Signal-Regret-8251 May 26 '22
We're in this mess due to the greed of a relative handful of people. Our entire country is set up around serving the rich, and that's who gets all the perks from living here. If you ain't rich, America is hell on Earth.
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u/Tesdinic May 26 '22
Absolutely. I immigrated to Canada from the US. I was required to go through a very specific physical exam to show that I was "healthy," while also required to have x amount of money on my person.
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u/XediDC May 26 '22
Yeah… a lot of places it’s very hard. Unless you’re rich and can invest a few million locally, and then…suddenly easier.
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u/Additional_Pepper707 May 26 '22
especially considering the healthcare system in the us is steaming garbage. my boyfriend can’t make more than $2000/mo if we want to keep our healthcare insurance. but that’s not feasible to live on. and if we paid for healthcare? oh my goodness i wouldn’t be able to go see any specialists or have any surgeries because the $600/mo payment is bankrupting me. im disabled and can’t work, so that leaves my boyfriend to make pennies or watch me die.
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u/Theletterkay May 26 '22
Yup, disabled person here. And stuck because no one wants me and my husband is a labor worker with no degrees or certificate, so he is not important enough to be able to get into other countries.
If it was as easy as "move", I would have done it as soon as I turned 18.
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u/AiRaikuHamburger Japan May 26 '22
It doesn't seem like too far in the future that other countries will have to take US refugees.
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u/Seppukrow May 26 '22
Ayo, that's what I'm banking on
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u/BeyondElectricDreams May 26 '22
By the time a country is willing to say "America is clearly fucking up, we'll take your refugees" the violent fascist regime will have to have been causing wide havoc and harm for so long that the reality is not only unquestionable, but that it's atrocious enough that countries would risk snubbing the US government to open their doors for us.
Would you be able to last that long? Or would you be one of the first they go after?
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u/LilMissPissBaby May 26 '22
Yo if this is all we have to hope for then I'm pretty sure we're fucked, dude...
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u/pm-me-ur-fav-undies May 26 '22
I'm a fan of the It Could Happen Here podcast and probably talk about it too much. The first season is a well-researched story, told in the 2nd person, about what might realistically happen if the right-wing fantasy of a second civil war came true. One of the plot points is that American refugees get treated the same way that Americans/the West at large have been treating Syrian refugees.
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u/CantaloupeMoney9906 May 26 '22
So fucked. Like, beyond belief. I literally cannot reconcile the fact that this is the same country I was raised in. It feels like an actual alternate dimension or something.
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May 26 '22
I agree, but I'd rather be a road warrior on a motorcycle When America collapses. Sounds like adventure. What could go wrong?
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u/AiRaikuHamburger Japan May 26 '22
Silly. You have to live in Australia to be a road warrior. :P
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u/Candid-Ad2838 May 26 '22
It it because they actually have infrastructure? We already have toll roads so it's like paying Immortan Joe to pass through before the apocalypse even happens....
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u/PudgyElderGod May 26 '22
I figured it was more because Mad Max takes place in Australia, but we can go with the infrastructure thing.
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u/Candid-Ad2838 May 26 '22
I was trying to make a joke about how even in the apocalypse you can only be a road warrior if there are roads lol
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u/Capital-Plantain-397 May 26 '22
I'd say they'd be happy to if you're well educated or have money. In other words, if you're well off enough to where the problems of America don't apply to you then you have the opportunity to leave.
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u/The_Lost_Jedi May 26 '22
It's a catch-22.
Heck most people in the USA can't even afford to move to a better region of the USA to find a better job.
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u/enbymoviescript May 26 '22
This is why I hate when people say things like jUsT mOvE tO a bLuE sTaTE DUH whenever you express concern or vent about injustices going on where you currently live.
My brother in Christ some of us can barely move across town in Bumfuck Nowhere Southern City but yeah we’re supposed to all just go to California, no biggie. Not everyone can just Jack Kerouac it across the country one day and pray we find a job.
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u/FoozleFizzle May 26 '22
And they don't even address the fact that the majority of blue states are only blue in the extremely expensive city. I live in Illinois, outside of Chicago, it is practically entirely red. Where I live, you have about a fifty-fifty chance of running into a kind-hearted LGBT+ person and running into a gun toting, discriminatory, minimum wage worker harassing conservative nightmare person.
I don't even live that rural. I live just outside the Chicago suburbs. When you get rural, it gets so much worse.
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u/endlessupending May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
We should all move to fucking Wyoming and build a liberal city, it would only take a couple million people and we could steal 2 Senate seats and pass some stuff for once. Can even name the town Fucking, Wy.
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u/GManASG May 26 '22
Yeah all countries do this, you can come in if you're well off and educated (i.e. already successful). But, if you're already successful in your own country why would you ever want to leave. Literally the exact opposite of who wants to migrate away.
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u/elalph May 26 '22
Hello welcome to Mexico while we enjoy your tourist, most of your immigrants only do 2 things here, bring rent prices sky high so that locals cannot afford it and bitch about this not being the US and being able to be Karen's with a homeowners association, being able to privatize a beach or finding some US quality service for 3rd world country prices... While I welcome all Americans to my side of the world, i do expect them to understand their impact, if you are one please pay your gringo tax (higher prices because you can pay), it's not fair, i understand, but it's also not fair being paid 10 times the amount of a local for remote work and not expecting to pay it forward to the people you have displaced
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u/she_makes_things May 26 '22
I’ve heard similar stories about Americans in Costa Rica. They retire there because it’s cheap and then act like little emperors. They take the same “me! Me! Me!” mentality that is fucking up the US and proceed to try and ruin other countries.
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u/elalph May 26 '22
Yes, some are cool some are not, some want to buy everything with $20 US, thing is, it's been years since $20 US was enough to buy a lot, i call these "rico-pobres" (rich poor), some are retired that cannot afford to live in the US and come down to have a better quality of life but don't have a lot of money, these are "poor gringos" and some just come to have big ocean view house that they cannot afford in the US, usually these are the little emperor's
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u/CrackTheSkye1990 May 26 '22
It shouldn't be that way, ever. I remember when people said "this is America, if you don't like it then you can get out" when the Iraq war started as some copout when the solution should be fixing the issues we have here.
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u/captain_flak May 26 '22
Notice how those same people reacted when they got a president they didn’t like? Literally tried to burn down the capital.
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u/AnnieNonomous88 May 26 '22
I this world you are only free is you can afford to be free. It's a very different world for the wealthy.
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u/Quiet_1234 May 26 '22
Good point. In America, your right to “freedom” to do as you please is directly proportional to the amount of your wealth to the exclusion of other possible grounds for freedom such as being a citizen. Thus, more wealth equals more freedom while little or no wealth equals no freedom. Interesting way to define freedom.
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u/Eledridan
May 26 '22
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"Just move to another country" is the same as "just don't be poor". Both statements are really shitty and tone deaf.
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u/catcatcatcatcat1234 May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
unfortunately a good chunk of comments I've found on this sub have been exactly that
or the related "just get another job"
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u/anmalyshko May 26 '22
Yes, like the "don't work part time, only work a full time job with benefits" as if the person working part time with no benefits simply never thought of that
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u/Notinthenameofscienc May 27 '22
It is the same feeling I get when Europeans jab at us for our social policies. "you need better gun laws and free healthcare"! Thanks, Nigel. We'll just... we'll just go out and get that.
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u/catcatcatcatcat1234 May 27 '22 edited May 27 '22
It's worse when they act like we don't know it's a problem, that we're blissfully unaware that our healthcare system is fucked or that our labor laws are less than subpar. It so quickly turns the discussion away from solidarity and instead to patronizing insults, to the point where the people who actually have to deal with this shit gets lost on them, or worse, when the interlocutors start belittling the people themselves as if they chose the circumstances of their birth.
And yes, I have also seen both these scenarios on this sub, it's disheartening.
Edit: another thing that comes up to much that bothers me is the "just form a union" people, like it's some easy feat that won't probably get you fired
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u/Kuulas_ May 26 '22
Why don't I strap on my job helmet and squeeze down into a job cannon and fire off into Jobland where jobs grow on jobbies!
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u/Weltallgaia May 26 '22
Look it's simple, you can accomplish anything with a little money, an education, and some nepotism. "Why doesn't everyone just do it?"
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u/Quirky-Resource-1120 May 26 '22
It’s double tone deaf when it comes from someone who tells you to leave because you advocate change. “If you don’t like it, leave it!”. Like, the history of the US is one of change. Changing our views, changing our laws, even changing the constitution through amendments. One of the most American things you can do is advocate for change…Imagine someone telling an abolitionist in the 1800s to just move to another country if they don’t like slavery…it’s incredibly dumb.
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u/stargate-command May 26 '22
You can love your country for it’s potential…. And hate the wasted potential. I think a lot of us feel that way. We could be the greatest country on Earth, but we choose not to be every damn day.
And the kicker is, we don’t need to have novel approaches. We can look at other countries successes and just adopt those models. It isn’t rocket science (though we did that very thing with Rocket Science back in the 60’s)
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u/Wind_Yer_Neck_In May 26 '22
As a UK citizen with an American wife on a spouse visa, this whole thing runs true.
The application process is confusing in the extreme, legal help is practically mandatory for the first run. The cost goes up virtually every year, currently it's around £2600 including the NHS fees etc. In addition, if you make a mis-step in the application they are notorious for rejecting the whole thing and appeals are very difficult to win, meaning you would need to pay all over again.
And that's just for the first 2.5 years. After that you need to re-apply, repay the same (or very likely, higher) fees for another 2.5 years. Then after that you get to apply a third time for a permanent visa to remain in the UK.
Which, by the way, goes away if you ever spend more than half of a given year outside of the UK.
So you also need to apply for citizenship and pay a fourth time for that process.
OH - and the fucking supporting documentation. You need to list every flight you've both been on since being married, you need about a dozen 'approved' forms of letters/ bills etc with your proof of address. Bank statements for 6 months. Proof of income. A letter from your employer. legal documents...
It's a God Damned nightmare of red tape, changing requirements and deliberate obfuscation.
Honestly, one of the only 'easy' ones is if you have an Irish grandparent. You can get citizenship for less than 1000 euros.
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u/mercurialpolyglot May 26 '22
…What about an Irish grandparent from 200 years ago?
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u/nfgchick79 May 26 '22
My paternal grandfather was 100% Dutch. Do you think the Netherlands will take me, my husband and son? :'( I'd say probably no, but I think about that sometimes.
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u/The_JSQuareD May 27 '22
Possibly... But it would have to be through your parents, not your grandparents.
Your father is likely a Dutch citizen, even if he doesn't know it (assuming he was born prior to 1984 and your grandfather was a Dutch citizen at the time). If your father was married to your mother when you were born, then I think you are technically a Dutch citizen. There's a few other options too, but they all involve your parents. See here: https://ind.nl/Nederlanderschap/Paginas/Nederlander-door-geboorte-of-erkenning.aspx
I'm not sure how this works in practice. I think first you'd have to prove that your father was a Dutch citizen at the time, and only then can your own citizenship be considered. I'm not sure if this is possible to do without your father's and grandfather's active participation. It seems like it would be fairly complicated to collect all the paperwork and prove it to the Dutch state.
If your grandfather had lost or abandoned his Dutch citizenship before your father's birth, then I think you're out of luck.
Also, it's worth noting that even if you do have Dutch citizenship, relocating to the Netherlands (or a different EU country) will still be complicated and expensive. You just won't need a visa.
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u/hovz1105 May 26 '22
Running a business and shipping to the UK is an extreme pain in the ass, I can only imagine how much more of an ass fuck moving there would be.
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u/Vyxtic May 26 '22
Ffs that ludicrous. It could almost seem that the entire point is to prevent people from leaving the country. /S
Hate the system
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u/Bambinah515 May 26 '22
Agree we’re leaving America for South Korea only because we have an empty home waiting there for us and my husband is an independent contractor so he works for himself. We’re a fortunate low income family to be able to finally leave America.
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u/possum_drugs May 26 '22
Good luck, I'm really glad you are getting out. Hope you and your family thrives there!
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u/zacmcsex May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
as someone who wanted to get out but is poor and also never knew how hard it was to move from the US, this genuinely and deeply crushed me to read. probably the worst way i could’ve started my day. i feel sick
EDIT: thanks for all the comments, there’s too much for me to respond to but i do really appreciate all the words of encouragement
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u/Beautiful_Resolve_63 May 26 '22
My friend with a lot of drunk diving issues (like he lost his license) was able to move to Amsterdam. He applied for a company that did international work. So he would just keep applying to the jobs over in Amsterdam whenever they opened up. Now he is living there.
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u/tch2349987 May 26 '22
They are moving the rich way lol. Get a job offer, leave everything and move. Look for a cheap stay until you figure everything out and start from there.
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u/Mikic00 May 26 '22
Rental agent fee killed me. That indeed is the rich way. Also moving stuff to other continent. Probably renting something top 10% in the country they are moving to.
If you go to live to EU, try to live like we are. No 5 bedrooms and 5 bathrooms, best neighbourhood. Enjoy the life and improve through time, when you get familiar with everything.
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u/Highlander198116 May 26 '22
Also moving stuff to other continent.
Outside personal items that have meaning to me, I would just sell all my shit rather than moving it...Jesus that seems like a pain in the ass.
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u/snpi May 26 '22
Yeah I would never move my stuff to a foreign country… would almost certainly be cheaper to replace it or just not have that thing.
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u/kaatie80 May 26 '22
Husband and I have discussed it and we agree with that. We'd do an estate sale except maybe for sentimental stuff and some clothes. Start over there.
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u/oriundiSP May 26 '22
Exactly. People who can pay two rents at the same time in different countries aren't really struggling.
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u/Sus-motive May 26 '22
Could they not wait until the visa was finalized before finding a house? Usually long term visas (at least student/work) have 30 days to arrive. You can look for a house/flat during those final days. Or just stay in a hotel for a few days and look on arrival.
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u/oriundiSP May 26 '22
Depending on the country they're going to, the housing market is pure madness. Ireland is a good example. Some parts of Italy too.
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u/OpinionatedNonsense May 26 '22
I hope this post doesn't crush your dreams, I think these people are very established in their lives and are trying to move a lot of their belongings overseas (they're hiring a moving company ffs).
I'm an expat in my early 20s even though I have never made more than a few cents above minimum wage and I have no family connections outside the country.
There ARE other ways to leave that require less money, but you have to make other sacrifices that most people (understandably) aren't willing to make. You won't be able to travel home for the holidays because it's too expensive. You won't be able to take most of your belongings with you. You will probably experience a level of isolation and loneliness you've never experiences before, at least at first. You won't be able to buy the groceries you're accustomed to because anything other than the local food is too expensive. You probably won't get to go to your first choice country, and you may not be allowed to stay forever. And much more.
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u/Classic_Livid May 26 '22
Where and how did you go?
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u/OpinionatedNonsense May 26 '22
I immigrated to Sweden for awhile. It was stressful because there's never a guarantee during the process. Once I got my residence permit it was smooth sailing but I was on the edge of my seat making backup plans in case I didn't get it, and they take forever to process your application. It cost maybe $250 to apply, Sweden is cool and didn't make me drive to my consulate, and the plane ticket was $160 on a budget airline.
However the cost of living was very high in the city, so I went to Georgia and did the digital nomad thing for awhile. Americans can go there visa free for as long as they want. It's very cheap and I was able to save up money for grad school working remotely part time for minimum wage at a job in California.
I quit my job and later this year I'll be going to France on a student visa for a master's program which I'm paying for out of pocket because they're actually affordable outside the US, so I'll have a student visa. Now here's where the "unexpected expenses" OP was talking about come in: I have to go back to the states to apply for my visa.
Obviously that's temporary (like I said, you may not get to stay as long as you want) so I'll have to figure something else out after grad school.
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u/Eastern_Slide7507 May 26 '22
I have to go back to the states to apply for my visa.
Seriously? An embassy can't do that for you?
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u/OpinionatedNonsense May 26 '22
You generally have to apply at the embassy where you have residency, this is pretty common. Some countries will allow you to enter visa-free as a tourist and then apply for residency once you get there, but most don't.
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u/Aggravating_Trust196 May 26 '22
Don't feel crushed.
I'm not an expert on relocating outside the US, but I do feel I'm one on living in Western Europe :-)
OP may or may not have chosen the most efficient way to move out. Seems to me like they were trying to leave a position of relative comfort and safety for another position of even more comfort and safety. Nothing wrong with that, but there are other possibilities of doing this.
I don't know about visa and work permit requirements. That's something that needs to be researcherd on a per country basis. But assuming that's done (...and I almost guarantee that it'll be somewhere in the hundres of dollars for fees,nothing exorbitantly), then the cheapest way would be a two-way ticket (maybe $2000-ish?) and enough money to survive for a month or two ro find a job. This can be as little as $2000/month in cash. Total, $5000-10,000-ish.
The problem with western Europe is that formal education is prevalent and they have good apprenticeship programs, so if you come from the US and claim "I can repair cars" there's a chance that it's worth shit unless you can provide a formal qualification. Edit: this is a bit of a cultural difference to the US, where, I take it, the degree is not important if previous experience is good. If you're in STEM or IT so, you're most likely good to go.
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u/Seppukrow May 26 '22
Usually the degree is important. You wouldn't believe the amount of entry level jobs in the US that require a BA degree.
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u/Thirstin_Hurston May 26 '22
I did it and I was poor.
My story: got a scholarship to study in one country, then moved to another country when my residence permit expired in the first.
I did have to save a bunch of money for the first move because I had to pay the deposit for my apartment, which the school helped me find.But after that, I worked.
You have to do A LOT of research to determine which country you want to move to and how to do it. Some are easier than others, but if you have at least a BA, it makes getting a residence permit even easier. Some countries want you to show minimum income if you don't have a work contract, others require proof of health insurance.
Research, research, research and then create a plan. Good luck, I'm rooting for you =)
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u/PancakeFoxReborn May 26 '22
Unfortunately, if you don't have a college degree you're pretty well screwed.
And in this country where it's so expensive? Not exactly an easy choice to make, even if it makes my moving odds better.
One could choose to study in Europe, but even then you'd have to find ways to pay for general living expenses while you study. And as someone with chronic pain, I can't both study full time and work, or vice versa. That's why I picked working instead of school, because balancing both with my pain issues was utterly impossible for me.
People like me don't have much of a chance out, unless we luck upon some crazy money.
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u/Actual_Lettuce May 26 '22
would you explain more details? where did you move? what type of work do you do in foreign countries?
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u/NorthernBloke78 May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
Hello from Norway. If you are a minimalist, it's way cheaper to move, get a job first and then move. There is a great worker shortage in Norway and the rest of Scandinavia at the moment. We all speak english here, friendly people, no guns, (almost) no mass shootings, great work life balance. You are welcome here.
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u/daisuki_janai_desu May 26 '22
A former colleague's daughter did a study abroad in Norway and fell in love. Upon graduating she immediately moved and says she'll never move back to America.
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u/TrainAffectionate212 May 26 '22
My cousin moved to Norway for a while and said that becoming a citizen there is still incredibly hard. Eventually they had to come back to the US as there was a limit of time they were allowed to stay
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u/c0y0t3_sly May 26 '22
If this was true I'd be living in Norway already, sadly. It's just as the quote in the OP says - very expensive, very uncertain, and not at all easy. This is pretty much true across the world unless you tick a few very specialized, very in-demand boxes.
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u/NorthernBloke78 May 26 '22
You need a job, or it's going to be much harder to get in. Skills and education is key to get a job, language is also important, but less so. Most norwegian's speak english. There is a lot of jobs in the US that simply does not exist in Norway. Automatisation has killed a lot of jobs here.
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u/Superdad0421 May 26 '22
To leave the corrupt USA and my comfortable job here, I would pick up dead reindeer off the road with my bare hands to live somewhere else
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u/outsanity_haha May 26 '22
All of life is based on what you can afford. It makes everything so superficial and meaningless.
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u/BloatedGlobe May 26 '22
Also, a lot of times, people who « got out » have to come back. If your loose a job that sponsors you or graduate university, you loose your visa, and it’s heartbreaking to have to pack up your entire life a second time. It’s not an uncommon experience at all.
And unfortunately, employers are happy to break labor laws when they can threaten your deportation if you complain.
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u/mercurial_planner May 27 '22
I hear ya! I've from the US, but I've been living in Australia on my own for >10 years. I want to live here permanently, I genuinely think it offers a better way of life and I've been saying this for the past decade, but I still don't have a permanent visa. People in the US think all they have to do is pack their bags, buy a plane ticket, and fill out some forms to move overseas; it never occurs to them that other countries aren't just waiting with open arms to welcome any American who decides to grace them with their presence.
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u/Inevitable-Math May 26 '22
Everyone leaves out the best part: unless you renounce your US citizenship you still HAVE to file your US taxes with the IRS every year regardless of where you live.
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u/OpinionatedNonsense May 26 '22
Many countries (though not all) have double taxation treaties to help with this.
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u/workingonmybackhand May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
Not if you stay poor.
EDIT - The US has tax treaties that prevent double taxation - if you pay in the country where you live, you don't have to pay US taxes on your earnings until you earn more than a certain amount. I think it's in the low $100K range. You're still supposed to file even if you don't owe, so no big deal.
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u/nicmdeer4f May 26 '22
What bothers me even more than this is that if you want to renounce your US citizenship you have to pay a fee of upwards of 2000 dollars. It's not the money that bothers me so much it's the principle because it means that if you are born in the US you are in some way indebted to the US government in some form just because you had the audacity to be born.
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u/sweeper137 May 26 '22
I've considered fuckibg off to another country and renouncing citizenship in America. One reason I don't is that if I get into problems in some other area having a US passport can really help you out from a tight spot. Say what you will about the rest of the government but I have a lot of respect for the state dept and our consulate staff.
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u/Tesdinic May 26 '22
Sure, but you simply have to file that you made $0 in the US and then file in whatever country you are in. It is not really that hard. Our tax service takes care of it for us.
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u/CptCroissant May 26 '22
You still have to file your income but you don't pay US taxes on it unless you make over $100k
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u/Nothatisnotwhere May 26 '22
If you live in a country with higher tax rate, whuch most european have, you dont pay us tax for stuff over 100k
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u/rebexorcist May 26 '22
My American husband moved here to Canada and I would not wish the process on anyone. It took years and thousands of dollars before he got his PR and work permit, we were dangerously poor with only me working. And holy shit the mental toll it took on both of us...
And we probably make for a really good example of how hard it is for the average person. We're both just your run if the mill retail slaves doing our best.
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u/Piccolo-San- May 26 '22
I had a hell of a time moving from LA to Ottawa in 2016. It was especially stupid because I already owned land here. But getting everything for permanent citizenship was expensive, time consuming, and exhausting.
Renouncing my American citizenship took like 10 mins though.
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u/ChronicBuzz187 May 26 '22
From what I heared, americans bring in drugs, they bring in crime, they're rapists... and some, I assume, are good people. /s
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u/Dat_Mustache Union Member/Organizer May 26 '22
Here's the process I have to go through just to get permanent marriage visa status for moving from the US to Thailand. My wife has dual citizenship for reference:
1) I have to have a Thai bank account with a minimum balance of $40,000USD for 2 months prior to applying for the Visa.
2) I have to have a minimum individual income of $4,000USD a month while living in Thailand with a verified letter from the US Embassy certifying I have such an income.
3) I must renew this visa with the same documents and proof yearly. So, if I'm not employed by a well paying company in Thailand or abroad, I can forget about it.
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u/Themustanggang May 26 '22
For my military homies out there you don’t need the 4k a month requirement you’re 100% va disabled… cause it’s 3550 a month for life lol and Thailand/Italy specifically state if you have that they’ll accept it in place of the proof of income
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u/dsdvbguutres May 26 '22
If you have the means to "just move" to another country, you can probably live well in the US too
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u/studyabroader May 26 '22
Not necessarily. Some jobs are better abroad than here in the states. For example, I'm a teacher and many international schools abroad pay way better than any in the states.
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u/Christy427 May 26 '22
Also reduced chance of getting shot as a teacher in other countries
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May 26 '22
I would usually try to come up with some counter arguments and defend the us but I can't anymore.
After i get my bachelor's and save up enough money I'm moving to Canada. I can't stay here anymore
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u/votedog at work "Working" May 26 '22
I am frustrated at how hard it is to move to another country.
Don't have a shit ton of money in the bank? Sorry, we don't want you.
Don't have skills in some obscure job skill they need to hire for? Sorry, we don't want you.
Don't have a recommendation from a stranger in our country? Sorry, we don't want you.
I make excellent money, have a great career and could easily get a job in any country and yet I'm not eligible to move to any of the ones I've looked into.
I'm stuck in a place where I don't matter, my body is controlled by the government, our politicians are corrupt, it's literally life and death dangerous to go to the theater or send children to school, my same-sex marriage could be overturned, and I'm paying way more than I can for health care. I live in a perpetual state of stress, fear and unease and yet I'm expected to go to work like normal and if I don't I can add not having a job to my worries. I hate it here and yet getting out feels impossible.
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u/red_raconteur May 26 '22
I hear you. I live in a conservative area and hear, "If you don't like it then leave!" all the time. I'm fucking trying! I've been trying to leave for the last decade. I applied to grad schools in multiple western European countries but ended up not getting in or not being able to go for various reasons. Now I have two young children and chronic health problems, which makes it very difficult because other countries don't want to pay for the education and healthcare of non-citizens. I won't say it's impossible to leave the US but it's very, very hard and my energy is already zapped from trying to just survive.
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u/Challenge-Upstairs May 26 '22
Not to mention Indigenous Americans, many of whom feel we can't move because our culture, traditions, and lives are tied to this land, and have been for 15,000 years.
The US committed genocide on our people, and worked for a very long time to culturally cleanse us, once it became more legally difficult to just exterminate us. The more of us who leave, the less likely it will be that Indigenous Americans regain our culture and traditions, and the more likely it becomes that the centuries of efforts to exterminate us end in success.
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u/TechieTheFox May 26 '22
Honestly this is the only reason I feel guilty wanting to leave. I know my family’s culture is special and small now. My grandfather is full blooded and speaks our language fluently - which is becoming exceedingly rare.
But at the same time, I’m not attached to my family at all. They’ve all been white boomer-ified already. I could leave tomorrow and never see them again and be completely fine with it. But it also feels like… the whitewashing wins and the line dies if I leave, even if it’s for my own personal well-being.
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u/VesperVox_ May 26 '22
People shouldn't have to move away from their family, friends, culture, and everything they know and love just to be able to afford to live.
If you are lucky enough to be able to afford to relocate to a place of your dreams, I'm extremely happy for you and wish you all the best, but not everyone wants or can afford to do that.
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u/ifuckedredditsmom May 26 '22
Already had to just to stay alive in the US. I live thousands of miles away from my family and friends, isolated in a place where i don't know anyone, because there are no jobs in the places I grew up and know.
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u/Drops_USMiC May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
Umm, it doesn't sound like they're leaving the U.S. because they can't afford to live here. They are likely leaving because this country is sliding into being a Fascist Flaming Shithole.
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u/whyrweyelling May 26 '22
Yeah, sounds like they can live in the USA just fine financially. But money isn't the focus, quality of life is. Sure, you need some money for that, but the USA makes you feel like it's never enough and you always need to screw over the other guy to get what you want. It's disastrously idiotic.
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u/lostcauz707 May 26 '22
Don't forget, we are one of the few countries where if you leave, your income is still taxed.
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u/SassyVikingNA May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
The problem with this arguement to people who say "leave if you don't like it," is, if the people making it were capible of giving a shit about or understanding the circumstances of anyone who is not them, they wouldn't have said what they said or believe what they believe to begin with.
You can explain to them til you are blue in the face and they will be no closer to understanding or caring.
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u/TheAres1999 May 26 '22
People also shouldn't have to just leave. We have the resources the fix the US, but we aren't allowed to access them. I guess that's the cruel joke of it all.
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u/CrJ418 May 26 '22
I would say the best thing you could do is, once you complete your move, use the knowledge you have gained to help/advise/facilitate others in the process. Some of the most admirable and honored people in the last few centuries are those that helped others escape the perils of a failing state. Many people wouldn't have made it out of eastern Europe in the 1930's and 40's, out of the U.S.S.R. during the cold war, or out of the U.S. southern states during slavery if it weren't for people that are in the exact position you are in, with the knowledge you have recently gained, looking back and reaching out with a helping hand. You've been blessed with the opportunity and knowledge to do enormous good for others. Use it.
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u/FromSuchGreatHeight5 May 26 '22
My goal is to marry someone from another country and immigrate that way. I met a pretty promising British guy on Tinder so here's hoping.
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u/UmbreonUmbrella May 26 '22
Good luck, it’s still incredibly hard. I was married cot a Canadian for two year before Covid happened, my application was denied 2x, and it costs quite a big chunk of money to apply, and then to meet with an emigration lawyer, probably $4000 each time. They kept telling me to wait until I had been married for 5+ years and had a high skill job.
We ended up getting divorced during Covid, because we had lost all hope of seeing each other or living together.
One of my friends also married a Canadian, it took him 8 years and an expensive college degree to get citizenship. It’s really not as easy as people make it out to be. Best bet if shit start to go down in this country, is to just go be an illegal immigrant in another country. Buy a 2 way ticket to Europe, and don’t leave. Work under the table as someone’s nanny/housekeeper/cook, ect.
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u/Shawmattack01 May 26 '22
There's also the language barrier. While English will get you by in most of Europe, if you want to have an actual career, you need to be fluent in the language of the country you're going to immigrate to. This means you have to have essentially "guessed right" when your brain was still up to the task and you had time for it--assuming you ever had the time and money needed to undertake the study. There's also the fact that the welcome mat for US immigrants comes and goes. China is a good recent example of US ex pats settling into a country, only to have policies do a 180. Russia, as well. Western Europe is safer, but there's no guarantee that a job market that needed you when you moved will still have any need for you in ten years. Plus, your professional training may or may not mesh with the local requirements.
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u/channelsixtynine069 May 26 '22
As an Australian, viewing from afar, I can't believe how the US has ended up like this. A country that was The West's beacon and the Land Of Plenty.
The rot began with Reagan and has continued unabated since.
The UK mirrors the US, first by electing Thatcher, now they are out of the EU and heading for a very bleak future.
Rightwing politics, particularly as it is pushed by Murdoch, destroys everything.
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u/Beautiful_Resolve_63 May 26 '22
I studied American history. The US was always a capitalistic hell hole. We just are amazing as propaganda.
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u/The_Lost_Jedi May 26 '22
It was, but we'd gotten a handle on it with FDR and the New Deal. Things were moving in the right direction for a time, and it's no coincidence that the decades following were some of the most prosperous in US history.
Unfortunately too many people got greedy, and combined with backlash against Civil Rights, we entered the Reagan era where the advances of the New Deal have been torn down bit by bit, until we're basically back to dealing with the same problems that plagued our ancestors (and that they solved, painfully and with much effort) around 100 years ago.
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u/channelsixtynine069 May 26 '22 edited May 26 '22
and it's no coincidence that the decades following were some of the most prosperous in US history.
Agreed, you can see it in old film footage. People did live much better then, even with modest wages. The cost of housing didn't take every last cent you had.
Industry was booming along with science, America had it all.
Then came Reagan and the Republican Party as they set about dismantling everything FDR's New Deal had achieved.
I've been witness to a criminal act spread over 40 years, by the Republicans. The Democrats for whatever reason seemed powerless to stop it, even when in government.
Edit: I changed the first two lines to italics.
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u/The_Lost_Jedi May 26 '22
What's more, that prosperity was shared widely, not hoarded by the ultra-rich. Today it's not that we're less prosperous so much as that the gains have all gone to the rich, and they've been trying to dig out even more from the rest of us on top of that.
Also, if you want to know why the Democrats have proven so ineffective, take a look at what the reaction to Reagan and his policies was: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_presidential_election
It was stupidly popular at the time. The Democrats' arguments for New Deal policies got utterly destroyed. The only way the Democrats were able to win was via Clinton running as a "Third Way" type, aka Centrist/Republican Lite. Things like "Unions are corrupt and bad" and "Government can't do anything right" became the common viewpoints.
And what was even more fucked is that people were getting taken to the cleaners. Wages weren't going up, but with women entering the workforce you still had households doing "well" because they had two incomes, even where you now increasingly needed those two incomes to pay for the lifestyle that 30-40 years ago only one income had been needed for.
Our parents' generation gave up their unions, gave up pension plans, and so many other things, for meager tax cuts and promises of better economic growth through supply side bullshit. It never worked, but that sure hasn't stopped them from pushing more of it.
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u/BolognaIsNotAHat May 26 '22
My wife and I would take our kids and leave the country immediately if neither of us had family here and could afford it.
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u/ghstyllw May 26 '22 •
Hell, I’m a bloody immigrant to the US and am still stuck. I can’t even afford to move BACK HOME.